AlvinofDiaspar said:
They really should to a test run of the plane and see what it is like.
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That would have to wait at least until June, and more likely July/August, because it hasn't been flown anywhere yet (test aircraft first powered up in March with the first test flight planned for end of June). I would expect the first test or two will be on runways that have ample room, which does not describe the Billy Bishop Airport.
 
TOareaFan said:
You don't actually, have to guess at what the Porter commissioned iFusion Poll asked.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/137422535/Porter-Poll-Methodology

Now, the fact that I could find this much information about iFusion while Mr. Kinsella could not says, either, something about my brilliance or something about his bias (IMO).
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That's not the actual script they used. On twitter, people were absolutely clear that the push poll ended with some leading questions about downtown councillors who oppose jets.
 
k10ery said:
That's not the actual script they used. On twitter, people were absolutely clear that the push poll ended with some leading questions about downtown councillors who oppose jets.
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As long as those questions were at the end, I don't see that it would necessarily invalidate the results from questions earlier in the survey.
 
sjc said:
That would have to wait at least until June, and more likely July/August, because it hasn't been flown anywhere yet (test aircraft first powered up in March with the first test flight planned for end of June). I would expect the first test or two will be on runways that have ample room, which does not describe the Billy Bishop Airport.
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Unless we can give ironclad conditional approval, we should rely on actual demonstrations of the performance of the plane before approving changes to the agreement.

AoD
 
sjc said:
As long as those questions were at the end, I don't see that it would necessarily invalidate the results from questions earlier in the survey.
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No, the fact that it was a push poll invalidates the results, and the fact that they deleted questions from the script they released invalidates the polling firm. I mean, seriously, what reputable pollster would ask "Some say this additional competition would lead to lower airfares and increase travel options for passengers. Do you support Porter Airlines growth plans?"
 
k10ery said:
No, the fact that it was a push poll invalidates the results, and the fact that they deleted questions from the script they released invalidates the polling firm. I mean, seriously, what reputable pollster would ask "Some say this additional competition would lead to lower airfares and increase travel options for passengers. Do you support Porter Airlines growth plans?"
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I don't think this invalidates the results since the statement "Some say this additional competition would lead to lower airfares and increase travel options for passengers" is a true statement.

The fact is there is not much difference between the Porter poll and the Toronto Star poll. As I noted above when simply asked if they support "jets" 47% said yes in the Star poll and 51% yes in the Porter poll. This would seem to validate the Porter survey.
 
Peepers said:
I don't think this invalidates the results since the statement "Some say this additional competition would lead to lower airfares and increase travel options for passengers" is a true statement.

The fact is there is not much difference between the Porter poll and the Toronto Star poll. As I noted above when simply asked if they support "jets" 47% said yes in the Star poll and 51% yes in the Porter poll. This would seem to validate the Porter survey.
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It's a little magic thing pollsters have discovered called framing. Suppose I put a poll in the field that said "Some say that a conspiracy of rich businessmen and unelected, unaccountable government officials are plotting to use public land for their own purposes. Are you willing to let that happen?" would you be ok with that too? It's a perfectly true statement.

We know less about the Forum poll unfortuantely. It shows a surprisingly big bump in support for jets. At best I'd guess it's transitory. The one interesting thing in the Star story, though, is

The poll also found that just over half of Torontonians prefer to use the island airport over Pearson for short trips — in particular, those who live downtown, Progressive Conservative supporters, high-income earners, those who walk or bike, and those who voted for George Smitherman and Joe Pantalone.
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That tells you they didn't just screw up the sample frame.
 
AoD said they should do a test run. I don't think that would be allowed normally but there is an exception to the jets ban - the CNE. Three months after first flight it might be just about ready to show off, and operating empty it would certainly make the runway currently there.

I walked from 1 Eireann Quay to Harbourfront Centre on Friday afternoon. The thing that most p!ssed me off on the journey is that access to Ireland Park is blocked from both sides - on the east by WT and on the east I think it's TPA/City of Toronto tunnel/watermain construction. Three levels of government plus a foreign state dropped cash or land asset value on that and I've never yet been able to access it when in the area.

I and my visiting companion (currently living in London, UK) spent some time walking around the quays near the Music Garden (in so far as WT construction permitted) and at Harbourfront Centre in addition to visiting the Power Plant before heading towards the Roundhouse. I could tell you what that was like but I think it would be best for people on this thread to take that walk themselves to observe what a landing Q400 sounds like.
 
Sure the plane noise is there, but right now what's most annoying is the tunnel construction; imagine the sound of a hammer banging all day every day -- even on one Sunday starting at something like 7:00 am and going for 14 hours. There's lots of construction in the area so that makes a lot of noise too. And then there are the motorcycles going along Lake Shore -- ahh, the sweet sounds of spring. And of course the sounds of the streetcars squealing as they make their turns (not so noticeable on Queen's Quay these days of course). There is lots of noise in this area all the time. As I've said before, it's the engine run ups that are really loud and horrid, not the takeoffs and landings -- I've been in the area since about the time Porter got started so I've seen it grow and seen the increased air traffic, but truly, the plane noise (apart from the run ups) doesn't stand out to me more than any of the other annoying noises.
 
k10ery said:
No, the fact that it was a push poll invalidates the results, and the fact that they deleted questions from the script they released invalidates the polling firm. I mean, seriously, what reputable pollster would ask "Some say this additional competition would lead to lower airfares and increase travel options for passengers. Do you support Porter Airlines growth plans?"
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Very true. It is completely biased. More competition and lower fares are likely... do you support it? More destinations.... do you support it? Quiet... do you support it? And as you said, if the poll was run by Community Air and led people with talk of rich business men and unelected government bureaucrats before a question, or led people with picnic on Toronto Island when a jet flies over before asking a question, or talking about how an airline would like to build on their near monopoly but filling in parts of the harbour and lake with dirt to allow larger aircraft before asking the question people who support the expansion would be up in arms about how ridiculous it is.
 
k10ery said:
"The poll also found that just over half of Torontonians prefer to use the island airport over Pearson for short trips — in particular, those who live downtown, Progressive Conservative supporters, high-income earners, those who walk or bike, and those who voted for George Smitherman and Joe Pantalone."

That tells you they didn't just screw up the sample frame.
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Yes, that is interesting: the bike riding, downtown, Smitherman supporting wealthy Conservatives. I wonder what Don Cherry would think of this large demographic?
 
^lol

I think they meant people with any one of those demographics! If you want all of those things in one person you're down to who, Alan Heisey? But he's probably not a PC.
 
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