If that's actually the case, and I don't believe that it necessarily is, then my vote would change from a conditional yes to an absolute no. I'm likely far from the only one who would make that switch.

Are you trying get people to switch their votes to 'no', or are you indicating that we should reject the growing use of our waterfront for recreational purposes in favour of busting open airport usage to any jet that can safely land on an extended runway?

That said, with noise, pollution and curfew restrictions in place in the tripartite agreement I find it hard to believe that any one party could make unilateral decisions on the direction of the airport without consequences.
 
Are you trying get people to switch their votes to 'no', or are you indicating that we should reject the growing use of our waterfront for recreational purposes in favour of busting open airport usage to any jet that can safely land on an extended runway?
None of the above. I am trying to get people to make an informed decision on what position they take on YTZ expansion.

That said, with noise, pollution and curfew restrictions in place in the tripartite agreement I find it hard to believe that any one party could make unilateral decisions on the direction of the airport without consequences.
It's not a true agreement of equals. To change the noise, pollution and curfew restrictions would require the Prov and Fed gov't to agree, with the result being forced upon the city by the Prov.

So, as long as the neither the Prov and Feds want any changes or either aren't cooperating, the restrictions are likely secure. But that's a big conditional position to take.
 
Sorry, I'll try to make it clearer. IMO, there are three basic positions on the YTZ plan.

1) No Jets, no expansion
2) Jets okay, with # of flights limited to capacity of airport, as long as YTZ-specific noise and pollution controls in place
3) All jets okay, limited to the capacity of the airport. Usual airline industry standards on noise and pollution are fine (see CARS, https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/aerodromeairnav-standards-noise-cars-906.htm)

IMO, only 1 or 3 are realistic positions to take, because #2 assumes that YTZ-specific noise and pollution controls will remain unchanged. So, where am I leading people? Simply, if you vote for #2, you're really voting for a hope of #2 and a good chance of #3.

I have never heard anyone suggest they wanted #3....I have heard the NOjets opposition group suggesting that #3 is the outcome if you allow any jets but I have never heard anyone that supports the current Porter position suggest that the airport should just be opened to allow any and all jets that can operate safely at YTZ.

I also do not agree that #2 is not a viable (in fact, preferred) solution.
 
That is certainly the belief Porter and its investors want you to have.

Just make sure you question and confirm the assumptions that must forever be in place for #2 to carry on indefinitely.

I have.....and I don't believe that a Province (as you seem to be suggesting) that is not party to an agreement would somehow force a municipality that is to change the agreement. At the end of the day, the people in the municipality will have a say in the future of that provincial government.

While cities do exist and operate at the behest/whim of the provincial government....that provincial government exists and operates at the behest/whim of the voters.

The noise restritictions at BB/YTZ have lasted and survived a long time. They existed before there were jets that could meet them. No one is asking that those noise restrictions be changed....just an acknowledgement that if there are now jets that can meet them, then controlling the noise by technology bans makes little sense rather than controlling it with actual noise restrictions/regulations.
 
I find the arbitrary limits that some are proposing on Porter are unfair and punitive. I've now flown Porter once, and probably won't again (Pearson is way more convenient for me), but I fully support Porter's plans. I don't believe in this fear-mongering that the noise limitations already in place won't be abided by.

Furthermore, expansion of Porter is good for Bombardier, which is good for Toronto and Canada as a whole.
 
^Well, all legitimate businesses operate within the boundaries set by regulations and limits, and many of those limits are arbitrarily defined. Regardless of whether these limits on Porter's operations are arbitrary, they aren't unfair. Porter has a choice: it can move its long distance jet operations to Pearson, like every other airline.
 
^Well, all legitimate businesses operate within the boundaries set by regulations and limits, and many of those limits are arbitrarily defined. Regardless of whether these limits on Porter's operations are arbitrary, they aren't unfair. Porter has a choice: it can move its long distance jet operations to Pearson, like every other airline.

Your "choice" is a non-starter for Porter and everyone knows it. Asking Porter to up and move to Pearson is basically asking them to shoot themselves in the foot, or head for that matter. Move to Pearson and they'd lose the one thing that makes them different from AC and WJ. Porter as we know would not exist at Pearson. There's no need for it to exist if it exists at Pearson. Though I admit, that's just my feeling.
 
Your "choice" is a non-starter for Porter and everyone knows it. Asking Porter to up and move to Pearson is basically asking them to shoot themselves in the foot, or head for that matter. Move to Pearson and they'd lose the one thing that makes them different from AC and WJ. Porter as we know would not exist at Pearson. There's no need for it to exist if it exists at Pearson. Though I admit, that's just my feeling.
The only other Toronto airport that could be used while still offering a marketable POD is YZD, and that would require an arrangement with Bombardier and the establishment of a rapid transit link.
 
Your "choice" is a non-starter for Porter and everyone knows it. Asking Porter to up and move to Pearson is basically asking them to shoot themselves in the foot, or head for that matter. Move to Pearson and they'd lose the one thing that makes them different from AC and WJ. Porter as we know would not exist at Pearson. There's no need for it to exist if it exists at Pearson. Though I admit, that's just my feeling.

You are (IMO) correct on this......YTZ offered Porter, as a startup, something that none of the previous startups had...a distinction from other airlines. To some its an advantage, to some its not, but it is a distinction and allowed them to offer a difference in service.
 
I'd be interested in seeing their books. Curious to know if their business model is actually profitable. I'm not sure we should be contributing any city funds to the expansion until we have this information.
 
I'd be interested in seeing their books. Curious to know if their business model is actually profitable. I'm not sure we should be contributing any city funds to the expansion until we have this information.

Good thing no one is asking for city funds for the airport expansion then.
 
Good thing no one is asking for city funds for the airport expansion then.

Well, true, Porter is footing the bill, and we usually think that businesses that pay for their own experiments, no matter how risky, have a right to do so.

But this isn't your run of the mill business venture that carries no risk except to the investor/business owner.

The construction of a concrete runway is a very costly, durable fixed asset that can't be moved, sold or modified. Laws, future business ventures and political influence will almost certainly bend toward it, and not the other way around.

I always thought that Porter's business plan to build a runway at its own expense to fly unproven jets to medium-range destinations that fierce stiff competition was shaky. However, there are two other possibilities which make more sense to me.

The first possibility is that Porter is buying these jets and building this runway not to fly to LA and Vancouver, but to allow the same plane to make multiple flights to Newark or Montreal without refueling and with quicker turnaround times. This, of course, means that there will be a considerable rise in the amount of flights and air traffic above Toronto Harbour.

The second possibility is that Deluce is priming Porter for a sale. This would make sense to me, since he's done it before, and because YTZ's competitiveness only applies to airlines that own turboprops. By expanding the runway, he can invite bids from all the airlines that own existing regional jets. So, in this case, we will see the invitation of jets that break existing noise rules...except that, when that time comes, the laws will bend toward accommodating these jets. After all, the runway is a huge sunk cost for TPA. Are they going to attach strings to the profitable use of an asset that they are liable for?

In both scenarios, we lose, although we lose a lot more in the second scenario. In the first, we get a dramatic expansion of air traffic above Toronto harbour. In the second scenario, we lose everything: the guarantee that there will be no discernible noise impacts, expansion of air traffic, and the customer experience of Porter, itself.

Even if this runway is built by Porter for Porter, the runway will almost certainly have a longer lifespan than Porter, the company, itself. This is just a fact of an enormous sunk cost like infrastructure. There will be a day when somebody else decides how they want to use the runway, and given the enormous cost and liability of the runway, they will make sure that they operate it on their terms, rather than the terms previously set out by lawmakers.
 
Good thing no one is asking for city funds for the airport expansion then.

Do you really think he's not going to try again for city funds?

I'm not against the expansion as long as we stick to the noise restrictions and don't allow for too many more flights, but I have zero faith in Deluce and the TPA.
 

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