[Whoaccio]

I don't think there is a thread on general bus service and transit on UT, so I decided to start one. Buses are probably the least sexy out of all the transit modes, but I think they are going to be where GTA transit makes or brakes. We are, obviously, never going to have most of the population within walking-distance to RT services, so feeder buses will inevitably be part of the solution. I think buses are one area where competition could be used to greater effect. With relatively low overhead costs and shared routes, buses should be a prime target for private competition. Blur the line between buses and cabs.

this is the reason why most "choice" riders don't take the bus:

Finally, some sanity in mass transit
The Gazette
Published: Saturday, August 23

A couple of new bus services, being launched soon by the Metropolitan Transit Agency, seem to have surprised and infuriated other transit agencies. But passengers who'll be able to use the new lines will be rejoicing, and many other Montreal-area commuters will be jealous.

Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly, much of the grumbling from other transit services and from unionized employees in the sector, seems to focus on the fact that these new bus routes will offer passengers air-conditioning, toilets and even Wi-Fi Internet access on board.

These are all amenities that users will obviously welcome, and so the resentment on the part of other transit services speaks eloquently about where their real priorities lie: with protecting market share, not with the best possible customer service.

So what got into the MTA, which is, shall we say, not widely famous for high customer satisfaction, to take this step? In one case that's clear: One new route will link Bell's Canada's new 4,000-job campus on Nuns' Island to two big South Shore transit parking lots. For that service, Bell has pitched in a large part of the financing. Since traffic is already an issue there, some transit upgrade is essential.

We're not so clear on the MTA's reasons for starting a route from their Vaudreuil station - which has lots of parking - to métro Côte Vertu, but it will be a big improvement over the train for off-islanders going to north-central Montreal island.

We were struck by the lament of a spokesman for Longueuil's Réseau de transport, that the new routes contradict the tenets of mass transit: "Something's wrong if we have some commuters sitting in air-conditioned buses with toilets and Internet, and others are standing on city buses." All together now, transit users: What's wrong, Mr. Bureaucrat, is that most of us still won't have the option to travel like human beings. Fix that! What a beautiful example of government thinking: Make the public accept a low quality of service by banning anything like competition. Keep the unions happy with generous contracts. Complain that there's no money for anything better. Then we won't have to try at all.

Competition is banned from much of the field of medical care in Canada, with results we all know. Competition is severely limited in the supply of some foods, such as chicken and dairy, with results including high prices and no innovation.

By all means, then, let's have a little intelligent competition in mass transit. Passengers will welcome this tiny breath of common sense, and will soon demand more of the same.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=6106c904-a0cd-4fc5-899c-d114e57ca086


EDIT: Just to be contentious, the TTC's (and assorted GTA bus agencies) monopoly on bus transit should be broken. Follow a sort of TfL route, have a govt agency assign a few common vehicle types, set fares, tender routes and maintain a common fare medium. The public monopoly on bus routes has negatively impacted transportation in and around the GTA, turning what was once a mildly profitable industry into a devastatingly costly one. Private bus operation has been a success in numerous Asian cities, including Hong Kong & Signapore as well as many American and European cities such as London, Phoenix and Stockholm. Toronto should move in this direction.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not sure if I buy competition as the answer.

For a whole host of reasons.

1) Overall bus mass transit loses money.

2) In light of the above, we can assume 2 things, that if even the busiest routes lose money, the only way a competitor can make money (with identical fares) is to substantially lower the wages of the driver.

I wouldn't suggest for a moment that TTC staff are not generously paid, but I can't say that busting their wages in 1/2 seems remotely fair either. I think bus driver is worth a living wage. To be clear, a cut for $1.00 or $2.00 per hour would do nothing to make service profitable, it would have to involve a cut of at least $12.00 per hour in pay.

3) Even if one were to endorse the wage cuts; only the bare minimum of routes with standing room only would end up being profitable.

Which means, that the private sector would only bid on the busiest routes, which already achieve the greatest success, and are the least subsidized.

In turn this would leave the public sector with only the least profitable routes, and create the need for even greater subsidies.

*****

The TTC needs to improve, but competition per se, I don't think is the answer.

To reference the Montreal article, TTC buses are almost entirely air conditioned already.

Good customer service choices can even be made by the existing Commission, though, I would be the first to say they are not made often enough!

****

Washrooms on TTC buses? Ewwwww. I don't think that's wise at all. How about we insist on getting the subways one's up to snuff first. Then if they can manage that, we think about washrooms at every station. That might be manageable.

****

Highback chairs would be nice; GO Transit, without competition already does this, just a matter of persuading the TTC to do the same.

Keep in mind the newest TTC buses not only have a much better layout at the back, they also have padded seats again! (once and a while they do listen)

****

Beyond that, I think the most important moves for suburban bus services; other than more service, is more seamless service.

This applies to fares, of course.

But also the need for fewer transit authorities.

How about merging Oakville and Burlington Transit for a start... to create the Halton Transit Authority.

Next, the same for Niagara.

Then, shhh, dont' tell Hazel...... But Mississauga + Brampton = Peel Region Transit.

There, that's much better!

 

[Dichotomy]

I have never seen the bus service along Wellelsey St or Sherbourne to be any where near full. As I watch these behemoth buses riding around nearly empty, I ask myself why we cannot employ smaller buses on the smaller routes. I know that labor costs eat up a big chunk of the TTC's budget, but what about starting 'new' drivers on these lesser used routes, pay them, say $5 an hour less to start, use the smaller, cheaper buses. Would that not result in some cost savings, which could then be poured back into the system?
These new buses cost a fortune and seeing them run around nearly empty is a shame. Plus, with the more cramped downtown routes, would smaller buses not be easier (and safer) to maneuver through traffic, bicycles, etc?
Other cities use smaller buses and run them to better capacities, or could run the buses more frequently.

Just asking, is all.............

 

[Whoaccio]

I have never seen the bus service along Wellelsey St or Sherbourne to be any where near full. As I watch these behemoth buses riding around nearly empty, I ask myself why we cannot employ smaller buses on the smaller routes. I know that labor costs eat up a big chunk of the TTC's budget, but what about starting 'new' drivers on these lesser used routes, pay them, say $5 an hour less to start, use the smaller, cheaper buses. Would that not result in some cost savings, which could then be poured back into the system?
These new buses cost a fortune and seeing them run around nearly empty is a shame. Plus, with the more cramped downtown routes, would smaller buses not be easier (and safer) to maneuver through traffic, bicycles, etc?
Other cities use smaller buses and run them to better capacities, or could run the buses more frequently.

Just asking, is all.............

I've often wondered why we couldn't run something like this:

or this:

along the more spartan routes. As far as I can tell, the main expenses are (and Northern Light rightly pointed out) the labor costs of employing an ATU133 member would outweigh any possible savings in gas and maintenance. I still think it is a good idea that, if buses are consistently empty, we should downsize the buses and improve headways though.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Calgary Transit got a lot of heat for contracting out their community (small) bus routes several years back from the ATU, so a similar move here would definitely create the same issue.

30-foot buses make sense in theory, but the savings hardly justify the costs of purchasing them, since the only real saving is in the initial cost and the small saving from less fuel use. The last 30 footers ran in Toronto on routes like Church, and it did little to save it from elimination.

I just think the Orion VII's are just overbuilt tanks... my preference is still for the New Flyers - they are more appropriately scaled and seem a lot better designed, the LFRs (restyled) turned out a lot better than th NG Orion VIIs....

If NFI had a local manufacturing plant, I wouldn't doubt that we'd be buying those instead of the poorly laid out and troublesome VIIs. But then again, TTC had its issues with the NFIs.

Though it's pretty much a sure fire bet right now that the TTC will be going with New Flyers for the 60-foot Artics.

 

[unimaginative2]

I'm in Berlin right now, and many of the routes have double-decker buses. They work extremely well, and might be a more practical solution in our winters than artics. Clearances here don't seem to be any higher than in Toronto, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[RedRocket191]

Though it's pretty much a sure fire bet right now that the TTC will be going with New Flyers for the 60-foot Artics.

Really?

I had heard that the negotiations had failed.

 

[Whoaccio]

The issue isn't so much mini-buses will be the savior for all of Toronto's problems, but that if our bus services were managed by a private, for-profit, interest it would naturally put operating efficiencies at the fore front. Looking elsewhere, part of this has been replacing underused bus routes with smaller vehicles. Phoenix has seen a 20% reduction in the operating cost of it's suburban-rural services post-privatization, at least part of which is from switching to minibuses. I can understand Phoenix not being a shining beacon of public transportation, but the same solutions have been used in much the same way in Hong Kong and Tokyo as well.

I am somewhat sympathetic to the TTC as, especially when contrasted with most US agencies, it has done a surprising job of maintaining transit ridership and basic minium services levels. No matter what way you slice it though, real productivity of the TTC has been in a steady decline over the years. Curiously at the same time wages have been in a steady increase over the years. Despite carrying an identical number of people as in the 1980s, the TTC now employs nearly 2x as many people. Part of that I admit is due to the increasingly labor intensive nature of maintaining our aging trams and infrastructure, and a shortage of capital funding certainly hasn't helped, but you can't help but wonder where that money is going.

Privatizing rail operation is asinine due to the naturally monopolistic nature of rail transit. Aside from more private involvement in the construction of new rail lines and possibly maintenance contracts, there is no real room here for private partners. As for bus routes though, there is nothing stopping any firm with even a modest line of credit from competing with industry giants like Veolia & Transdev. This would lead to a reduction in real wages, lower maintenance costs and an all-round more responsive system to the needs of customers. The VIVA bus is a great example of what could be achieved. Private companies like Veolia, Arriva & Transdev have global expertise in transport planning and compete for market share. That is how York Region, otherwise a transit backwater, has more comfortable buses (with wifi!) while the TTC is operating, shall we say, more retro-chique equipment.

 

[drum118]

By 2009, MT fleet will see 36 EZ or about 8% of the fleet.

At $100,000 per bus, saving will see $3.6m or enough money to by 7 extra 40'.

24-30 foot bus are better suited for narrow road and residential streets as well low ridership routes.

More systems are moving to 30' buses. Own Sound is 100% 30's. Saw a fair number in Buffalo this pass week.

Calgary has the largest fleet of small buses.

As for TTC 60 footers, NFI buses will never see service here as TTC staff only wants Orion or buses made in Ontario. I was told months ago both by NFI and TTC that there would be no 60 here in 2010 or 12.

Unless the Commissioner over ride staff recommendation or there is a change within TTC staff, there will be no 60's here.

TTC wants 18 year warrant and no NA bus manufacture is offering 18 years for 60 footers. To get any warrant will cost an arm and leg since most buses are being made to last only 12 years and not worth the money.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Really?

I had heard that the negotiations had failed.

Sorry, I had misread the Commission Report. They had negotiated with NFI hoping for 2010 delivery, but they failed, as you and drum118 note.

The ensuing sixty foot articulated bus negotiations with New Flyer involved numerous stated exceptions/qualifications to the RFP specification such as payment terms, latent defects, warranty terms and conditions, contract security, delivery and technical performance issues. These negotiations have failed to result in the achievement of an agreement suitable for recommendation by staff for the procurement of sixty-foot articulated buses at this time for commercial and operational reasons.

 

[RedRocket191]

Sorry, I had misread the Commission Report. They had negotiated with NFI hoping for 2010 delivery, but they failed, as you and drum118 note.

Wishful thinking... we're all guilty of it