[darwink]

Interesting comparison with the Forks. My perception is that the Forks also incorporates historic architecture, which would probably make it easier to attract better vendors.

I believe the federal government was also involved in the establishment of Granville Island.

TBH I don't really think the architecture is really a huge boost to the Forks. Doesn't make it more interesting.

The slow burn and not trying to make a huge return I think is what helps make it work. The Forks in 2006 only made $1.7 million in market rental income. In 2012, $2.2 million. By 2019 it was $4.9 million. Super patience.

 

[Silence&Motion]

TBH I don't really think the architecture is really a huge boost to the Forks. Doesn't make it more interesting.

The slow burn and not trying to make a huge return I think is what helps make it work. The Forks in 2006 only made $1.7 million in market rental income. In 2012, $2.2 million. By 2019 it was $4.9 million. Super patience.

Perhaps. But, a slow burn is easier when you're a designated national historic site housed in century-old buildings as opposed a cheap suburban-style shopping mall built from scratch in 1993.

 

[Mountain Man]

I believe the city owned it until 2005 ish. It failed rapidly as the City tried to recover costs before it was really anything more than an Imax with a food court. The Forks in Winnipeg on the other hand, you have the federal government as a very long term landlord - in 2006 it was worse than Eau Claire in 2006, but by 2017 it was 100x better. Over the years in Winnipeg they cultivated good vendors.

I don't think the Forks is any better than Eau Claire, it's completely disconnected from downtown and is totally car centric. The best things they have in there are the baseball stadium and the old warehouse building that's a market / food hall. The rest of the Forks is really nothing special. Don't even get me started on the tindall stone bunker / glass turd lol.

 

[darwink]

I guess I'm saying - if the forks can be made to not suck, with the right strategy Eau Claire could have been as well - probably with much better results actually.

 

[Mountain Man]

I get what you mean, though I had to add my point because I feel like most of the praise heaped on the forks isn't really worth it.

 

[ByeByeBaby]

Eau Claire was both not well designed but also ahead of it's time.

The two big features were the farmer's market and the first IMAX theatre in the city. Unfortunately, this was back when an IMAX blockbuster meant a documentary about the jungle or something like that. It was around 15 years after the market opened that big movies like The Dark Knight had IMAX-filmed segments in them. And it's only become more popular since then -- these days even music videos are being filmed in IMAX. Similarly, the move towards farmer's market and local produce and so on is much bigger than it was in 1993. Unfortunately, retail has a really strong feedback effect; a good retail area attracts better retailers, which makes it more attractive. On the other hand, once people stop visiting retail, it goes into a death spiral; the more popular merchants move to better locations and less attractive retailers move in to take advantage of the cheap rent.

The other reason is the central city population has grown substantially since then; the census tract with the mall is up 45% or so since it opened, and the three next closest ones are up 35%. An extra 6000 people or so within walking distance would help the mall substantially. (The Civic Census 2016-2019 shows a further 8% or 2000 people in the communities that approximate these four tracts; Eau Claire and Chinatown are up around 20% vs 2019). And this doesn't include the massive growth in the Beltline, Bridgeland, etc. - I picked another 8 tracts bordering the four I show below; they went from 42K in 1991 to 54K in 2016 - 12K and 27% more.

But it was also badly designed -- both the big picture where it's surrounded by ample parking trying to complete with suburban malls, rather than surrounded by retail or residential building that density. Even at smaller scales, though -- the food court is at the north end, as far away from the downtown office lunch crowd as possible; meanwhile, the restaurants with patios are mostly located away from the pathway, where they might draw in passers by on a summer evening.

That said, I wonder if an Eau Claire that opened in 2008, showing the newest blockbusters and catering to 15,000 more area residents might have been successful even if it was built brick-for-brick the same. (maybe a less 1993 color scheme) The problem is that by then it already had the dead mall stigma on it.

 

[DougB]

Eau Claire Market did reasonably well out of the gate. The parking lot on the south was intended to be a future phase with more retail space, a hotel and a condo tower. Its appeal as a destination faded slowly, but it did serendipitously emerge as a sort of hub for the pathway system. I remember going to the Barley Mill then seeing Mrs. Doubtfire at the theatre in December of 1993. I had just graduated from my secins degree and felt confident enough to spend $40 in a single evening foe the first time ever

 

[UrbanWarrior]

A better comparison with the forks would of course be the East Village (at the forks of the Bow and Elbow), as well as the historic buildings etc. This comparison holds more weight in just about every way. While the forks has garnered far better retail and is more of a destination largely through the sheer fact that Winnipeg has fewer true “destination” spots, the EV has a population now dwarfing the Forks along with the 2 to 3 blocks closest to its borders, so I don’t see it as that big of a difference except for an edge toward the EV since it has the NMC and CL, while the Forks does have the amazing CMLC.

Eau Claire Market was always a mall, can’t really be compared to the market at the Forks or Granville.

 

[JesseLikesCities]

A better comparison with the forks would of course be the East Village (at the forks of the Bow and Elbow), as well as the historic buildings etc. This comparison holds more weight in just about every way. While the forks has garnered far better retail and is more of a destination largely through the sheer fact that Winnipeg has fewer true “destination” spots, the EV has a population now dwarfing the Forks along with the 2 to 3 blocks closest to its borders, so I don’t see it as that big of a difference except for an edge toward the EV since it has the NMC and CL, while the Forks does have the amazing CMLC.

Eau Claire Market was always a mall, can’t really be compared to the market at the Forks or Granville.

I always enjoy reading your synopsis's @UrbanWarrior . You have a gifted way of concisely explaining topics such as this imo.

 

[darwink]

Eau Claire could have been more than a mall. I remember thinking it was really cool in ~1995. But even then the central part didn’t seem like a market with stalls but as a store with a wall.

Just change a few things in the early 90s and the trajectory likely changes.

 

[UrbanWarrior]

I always enjoy reading your synopsis's @UrbanWarrior . You have a gifted way of concisely explaining topics such as this imo.

Awe thanks dude. I was worried I sounded a little bitchy there. Not my intention. Thank you for the props though.

 

[Silence&Motion]

Eau Claire Market was always a mall, can’t really be compared to the market at the Forks or Granville.

Still beating the dead horse about the role of architecture here, but... Granville, Forks, and Eau Claire are all variations on the "festival marketplace" craze of the 1980s. The thing is, almost all festival marketplaces were revitalization projects that attempted to convert abandoned industrial buildings into something resembling a suburban shopping mall. While many elements of these projects have since become dated, the underlying buildings are still attractive. It's just a matter of swapping out Ripley's Believe It Or Not for a craft brewery or whatever to keep up with consumer tastes.

But Eau Claire was built from scratch (a single smoke stack and a tiny wooden house notwithstanding). Because of this, they basically ended up with a suburban-style shopping mall that could have been built anywhere. Again, I think the project would have been more successful if they had just tried to work with the buildings that were there. I'm sure the bus barns were no Distillery District, but they at least would have resulted in a unique urban form rather than Malborough Mall's uglier younger brother.

 

[CBBarnett]

Still beating the dead horse about the role of architecture here, but... Granville, Forks, and Eau Claire are all variations on the "festival marketplace" craze of the 1980s. The thing is, almost all festival marketplaces were revitalization projects that attempted to convert abandoned industrial buildings into something resembling a suburban shopping mall. While many elements of these projects have since become dated, the underlying buildings are still attractive. It's just a matter of swapping out Ripley's Believe It Or Not for a craft brewery or whatever to keep up with consumer tastes.

But Eau Claire was built from scratch (a single smoke stack and a tiny wooden house notwithstanding). Because of this, they basically ended up with a suburban-style shopping mall that could have been built anywhere. Again, I think the project would have been more successful if they had just tried to work with the buildings that were there. I'm sure the bus barns were no Distillery District, but they at least would have resulted in a unique urban form rather than Malborough Mall's uglier younger brother.

The other thing to consider is that The Forks is a pretty awesome destination now - it wasn't nearly as attractive 15 years ago. The architecture and programming allowed for further evolution, switching what was a kitschy tourist trinket type place with low traffic in the 2000s into one with local artists, food and beer hall - much more appropriate and in line with contemporary trends. Eau Claire failed to make the same pivot, held back by both architecture and programming.

As mentioned by someone, an important distinction is the lack of public sector role in Eau Claire beyond disposing of the land in the first place. Both Granville and the Forks maintained some level of stewardship for decades from federal, provincial and municipal levels of government. That's not always a recipe for success, but plays a role into why Eau Claire's vision pivoted quickly to redevelopment rather than reinvestment and cultivation of some long-term plan to develop a hub of cultural and social significance.

 

[Disraeli]

Does anyone know if the plan is to have Riverfront ave extend into the plaza in some capacity?

 

[Mountain Man]

They would need to demolish the market to do that, so possibly in the long term.