[lemongrab]

Here's what I would do to mitigate costs downtown.
View attachment 585247
Guessing it's too late to go this route? But if y'all think there's any chance otherwise I would happily send this to every city councillor.

I've been big on this 1st St SW idea for a long time. Even just having the 1st Street underpass as an already dug out starting point will fully supported walls would have to make things so much easier (though I imagine it would need to go a bit deeper there, too).

Lots of options for what to do south of the heavy tracks. I know we've discussed it a lot, but I could talk myself into at grade across the Macleod Trails, though certainly not ideal. Funny how that option suddenly seems a lot more tolerable in this new state of affairs.

Or...if you ran down 10th, what about extending the Macleod underpasses 1 block further south (like how 4th St W goes under 9 Ave)? Still gotta figure out Olympic Way

The original intention was a red line spur which exclusively served Douglas Glen and south. In the 90s when low floor trains were a curiosity. #2 is totally bogus

The cost difference is really small when you look at the project. The 'integration' is even pretty minimal.

What we do know is for 25 years, new systems elsewhere were getting fancy new low floor cars. Simultaneous to that construction, millions went into street scape improvements. Much like street scape improvements when the 17th Ave SE BRT was built. Simultaneously we replaced the stations on 7th Ave with modern ones, and rebuilt the street and electrical infrastructure.

All that conflated and of course we would like to spend less (but never do a true tradeoff analysis if low floor means longer trains which means bigger underground stations which means MUCH MORE cost, and given that low floor trains cost more to maintain and more to procure, just maybe the station cost isn't what matters!).

Where was the spur going to split off to the east?

 

[kempes_78]

Stating an opinion!

Hardly outrage just plain construction economics.

 

[kempes_78]

I've been big on this 1st St SW idea for a long time. Even just having the 1st Street underpass as an already dug out starting point will fully supported walls would have to make things so much easier (though I imagine it would need to go a bit deeper there, too).

Lots of options for what to do south of the heavy tracks. I know we've discussed it a lot, but I could talk myself into at grade across the Macleod Trails, though certainly not ideal. Funny how that option suddenly seems a lot more tolerable in this new state of affairs.

Or...if you ran down 10th, what about extending the Macleod underpasses 1 block further south (like how 4th St W goes under 9 Ave)? Still gotta figure out Olympic Way



Where was the spur going to split off to the east?

The original intention was a red line spur which exclusively served Douglas Glen and south. In the 90s when low floor trains were a curiosity. #2 is totally bogus

The cost difference is really small when you look at the project. The 'integration' is even pretty minimal.

What we do know is for 25 years, new systems elsewhere were getting fancy new low floor cars. Simultaneous to that construction, millions went into street scape improvements. Much like street scape improvements when the 17th Ave SE BRT was built. Simultaneously we replaced the stations on 7th Ave with modern ones, and rebuilt the street and electrical infrastructure.

All that conflated and of course we would like to spend less (but never do a true tradeoff analysis if low floor means longer trains which means bigger underground stations which means MUCH MORE cost, and given that low floor trains cost more to maintain and more to procure, just maybe the station cost isn't what matters!).

Any phazing/ sections, and construction must be optimized to meet the construction plan. Starting points to be carefully selected. Tunneling is key and critical. Costs must stand alone when calculated.

 

[jmarchy]

Here's what I would do to mitigate costs downtown.
View attachment 585247
Guessing it's too late to go this route? But if y'all think there's any chance otherwise I would happily send this to every city councillor.

I have mostly been a lurker here but this image makes me feel a bit better about the 4 St SE station change for what the above ground portion will look like in Victoria Park (assume it will still be shorter than this). Seems to have minimal impact on any C+E district redevelopment plans and might even be easier to integrate if they do end up building a central train station here. Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't have this as the plan in the first place.

Can we talk about how this was the plan for the now deferred Centre St station? You ride a subway in Europe and in order to do so you walk down a short staircase to the platform. Here in Calgary we were apparently planning a massive underground station with elevators, escalators, and a mezzanine level and we pat ourselves on the back that eliminating it will save $400 million? Maybe we should bring the station back and build it realistically instead of as some university ideal fantasy project. This station is supposed to serve 2,000 riders per day!!! (Renderings from the Green Line website)

Agree this is way overkill for what this station needed to be. The purpose of the mezzanine level seems to just be to allow access over the top of the track or the escalator would go right through it, but it could have been 1/3rd of the size easily. No real need for elevators to even stop at that level. If this is the scale they're building it at, I don't see how this station would ever be worthwhile to add to the line down the road - if that's even planned, or has it been fully cut?

 

[kempes_78]

I have mostly been a lurker here but this image makes me feel a bit better about the 4 St SE station change for what the above ground portion will look like in Victoria Park (assume it will still be shorter than this). Seems to have minimal impact on any C+E district redevelopment plans and might even be easier to integrate if they do end up building a central train station here. Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't have this as the plan in the first place.


Agree this is way overkill for what this station needed to be. The purpose of the mezzanine level seems to just be to allow access over the top of the track or the escalator would go right through it, but it could have been 1/3rd of the size easily. No real need for elevators to even stop at that level. If this is the scale they're building it at, I don't see how this station would ever be worthwhile to add to the line down the road - if that's even planned, or has it been fully cut?

You need to think like a designer with a deep underground structure: a mezzanine will be necessary as there is sophisticated electrical and mechanical plant to install. Consider future expansions and station capacity without extending the footprint.

 

[accord1999]

Were the objectives officially published at any point? In the very simplest terms, I'd have to think the primary objective was something like: build the best possible transit for about $5B (of course with a whole bunch of points to define what that means in terms of service, ridership, targetting the North/SE, and the need to satisfy requirements from Prov/Feds for funding, etc)

Yeah, I don't think there were any officially enumerated list of objectives and how important they were. You only had business case documents (https://www.calgary.ca/content/dam/www/green-line/documents/GL-Business-Case-2016.pdf) and presentations listing the general benefits and the need:

This allowed a lot of leeway to the planners to decide on their own what was most important and only needed to report back to Council very infrequently, leading to these continued surprises where the left hand doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing.

 

[TooBizzy]

Here's what I would do to mitigate costs downtown.
View attachment 585247
Guessing it's too late to go this route? But if y'all think there's any chance otherwise I would happily send this to every city councillor.

8 gorillion dollar engineering overhaul

 

[accord1999]

I have mostly been a lurker here but this image makes me feel a bit better about the 4 St SE station change for what the above ground portion will look like in Victoria Park (assume it will still be shorter than this). Seems to have minimal impact on any C+E district redevelopment plans and might even be easier to integrate if they do end up building a central train station here. Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't have this as the plan in the first place.

The versions before 2020 had the 4 St station above-ground. Perhaps after changing Eau Claire to 16th from a tunnel to bridge+at-grade, they now had a "surplus" itching in their pockets that they had to immediately spend.

Agree this is way overkill for what this station needed to be. The purpose of the mezzanine level seems to just be to allow access over the top of the track or the escalator would go right through it, but it could have been 1/3rd of the size easily. No real need for elevators to even stop at that level. If this is the scale they're building it at, I don't see how this station would ever be worthwhile to add to the line down the road - if that's even planned, or has it been fully cut?

With the Green Line now being unfunded by at least $8B, there's absolutely no reason to spend $400+M for a station that was only forecasted to have 3600 riders/day a fully built-out Green Line. The fact that they didn't defer it back in 2017 and use that money to go further north (at least on paper) just shows how poor the prioritization has been for the Green Line.

 

[darwink]

I've been big on this 1st St SW idea for a long time. Even just having the 1st Street underpass as an already dug out starting point will fully supported walls would have to make things so much easier (though I imagine it would need to go a bit deeper there, too).

Lots of options for what to do south of the heavy tracks. I know we've discussed it a lot, but I could talk myself into at grade across the Macleod Trails, though certainly not ideal. Funny how that option suddenly seems a lot more tolerable in this new state of affairs.

Or...if you ran down 10th, what about extending the Macleod underpasses 1 block further south (like how 4th St W goes under 9 Ave)? Still gotta figure out Olympic Way



Where was the spur going to split off to the east?

Anderson was what was on the maps iirc

 

[ahuch]

Is cost at all a factor? Do you need to pay for parking downtown? Do you find yourself stuck in traffic often on that route?

If the actual traffic isn't much of an issue where this line serves than it is vital to add on to this ASAP. I think you need to get Justin's crew to commit to something before they're gone. I do not see Pierre scuttling the commitment to building a train out to Conservative voters in the SE.

I do pay for parking downtown, but rarely find myself stuck in traffic. Inglewood and Ogden Rd flow relatively well, even in peak rush hour. Alternatively, Deerfoot is typically jammed and all the neighborhoods that feed Deerfoot further south keep growing. So even with the Deerfoot improvements, by the time Green Line is built I think this will be a much bigger issue.