[lemongrab]

This is a totally fantastical thought experiment, but imagine if many decades ago the city+province bought CP out of their track from the Elbow River to Cochrane. Which probably means building about 35kms of new heavy rail tracks from Balzac to Big Hill Springs and down to Cochrane, increasing the CP route distance by about 15kms overall (but eliminates a bunch of level crossings and gives them double track the whole way).

Let's say this happens in the 2000s when they moved out of Vic Park. Instead of doing the blue line west next we'd do a joint venture to fully twin heavy rail + 2 LRT tracks from Inglewood north along the Nose Creek alignment - forking to go up Centre St and to the airport/blue line.

And then eventually the southern 2 tracks through DT connect the SE leg to the west leg (it slides perfectly into the Bow Trail median without being elevated. The northern 2 tracks heading west could serve Bowness/Tuscany/Cochrane and it would be much easier to extend out to Banff (plus bunch of land south of Tuscany could be more than industrial):

Teal/Green are effectively one line, the earthtones another

Interesting to wonder how many other things would have played out differently in this scenario. How many other projects might have been deferred or done differently (Deerfoot expansions, some underpasses, etc). Bowness and Ramsay/Inglewood become less disjointed with convergence points to densify around. Same for EV/Vic Park, WV/Sunalta, and most importantly DT/beltline. Maybe DT develops more circular/symmetrical rather than oblong; maybe that means more residential on the south side of the river

Just some Sunday daydreaming

 

[Surrealplaces]

This is to also add to the pipe dream, but if there ever was a day where the CP tracks were bought out, it would be nice to turn the rail corridor into an underground transit corridor for BRT, LRT and HSR, and do a cheap quick cut and cover with parkland on top. Park land with cycle and pedestrian lanes, and residential frontage.

The canal is still my ultimate pipe dream, but I'm willing to let that go in place of a long stretch of park.

 

[darwink]

This is a totally fantastical thought experiment, but imagine if many decades ago the city+province bought CP out of their track from the Elbow River to Cochrane. Which probably means building about 35kms of new heavy rail tracks from Balzac to Big Hill Springs and down to Cochrane, increasing the CP route distance by about 15kms overall (but eliminates a bunch of level crossings and gives them double track the whole way).

Let's say this happens in the 2000s when they moved out of Vic Park. Instead of doing the blue line west next we'd do a joint venture to fully twin heavy rail + 2 LRT tracks from Inglewood north along the Nose Creek alignment - forking to go up Centre St and to the airport/blue line.

And then eventually the southern 2 tracks through DT connect the SE leg to the west leg (it slides perfectly into the Bow Trail median without being elevated. The northern 2 tracks heading west could serve Bowness/Tuscany/Cochrane and it would be much easier to extend out to Banff (plus bunch of land south of Tuscany could be more than industrial):

View attachment 708140
Teal/Green are effectively one line, the earthtones another

View attachment 708141

Interesting to wonder how many other things would have played out differently in this scenario. How many other projects might have been deferred or done differently (Deerfoot expansions, some underpasses, etc). Bowness and Ramsay/Inglewood become less disjointed with convergence points to densify around. Same for EV/Vic Park, WV/Sunalta, and most importantly DT/beltline. Maybe DT develops more circular/symmetrical rather than oblong; maybe that means more residential on the south side of the river

Just some Sunday daydreaming

You can use the 3-D Digital Calgary map (from the city) to grab an elevation profile of the route which is as important as distance. Distance is one thing, elevation is another.

 

[lemongrab]

You can use the 3-D Digital Calgary map (from the city) to grab an elevation profile of the route which is as important as distance. Distance is one thing, elevation is another.

I looked at a basic topo map and mapped it with mapmyrun to compare elevations (that's gotta be pretty similar to what professional cartographers use, right?). The 25km run from Balzac to the edge of Big Hill Spring canyon is 0.7% grade. Dropping down to the creek is about 5% so you'd have to smooth that out with earthworks and an elongated bridge over the creek (there's a Lafrage operation on the plateau so maybe those earthworks are productive). The final drop down to HWYs 1 and 22 looks to be about 2.5%; it looks a little tricky to mitigate today with the new interchange and recent development to the west of it, but maybe not 20 years.

There's already a pretty flat former road cut along the length of Big Hill Spring from Cochrane; it's closed beyond the first 2kms which lead to a single homesite that looks pretty damn amazing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/AVGNqmiusX6ZpDeU9. That 2km drive looks beautiful on streetview. I'm sure it's all not ideal for a mainline, but it's not exactly the spiral tunnels either.

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

This is a totally fantastical thought experiment, but imagine if many decades ago the city+province bought CP out of their track from the Elbow River to Cochrane. Which probably means building about 35kms of new heavy rail tracks from Balzac to Big Hill Springs and down to Cochrane, increasing the CP route distance by about 15kms overall (but eliminates a bunch of level crossings and gives them double track the whole way).

Let's say this happens in the 2000s when they moved out of Vic Park. Instead of doing the blue line west next we'd do a joint venture to fully twin heavy rail + 2 LRT tracks from Inglewood north along the Nose Creek alignment - forking to go up Centre St and to the airport/blue line.

And then eventually the southern 2 tracks through DT connect the SE leg to the west leg (it slides perfectly into the Bow Trail median without being elevated. The northern 2 tracks heading west could serve Bowness/Tuscany/Cochrane and it would be much easier to extend out to Banff (plus bunch of land south of Tuscany could be more than industrial):

View attachment 708140
Teal/Green are effectively one line, the earthtones another

View attachment 708141

Interesting to wonder how many other things would have played out differently in this scenario. How many other projects might have been deferred or done differently (Deerfoot expansions, some underpasses, etc). Bowness and Ramsay/Inglewood become less disjointed with convergence points to densify around. Same for EV/Vic Park, WV/Sunalta, and most importantly DT/beltline. Maybe DT develops more circular/symmetrical rather than oblong; maybe that means more residential on the south side of the river

Just some Sunday daydreaming

A heavy rail reroute was where my mind was starting to wander to as well. I wonder if something like that could still be in the cards?

It really would open up some enormous opportunities within the city, and should be a whole lot cheaper than grade separating HSR in the core.

 

[trtcttc]

Can't the province and the feds lean on CPKC for use of the track and the space? Twist their arm a bit.

I'm not sure how integral we are to the overall CPKC network, but the reasons I imagine these rail companies want so much control is they do ship a ton of essential and industrial goods that they need reliability.

 

[trtcttc]

The problem is our rail cordor through downtown is really not wide enough for a massive regional Grand Central Station in most of the downtown. The rail cordor at union station in Toronto is close to ~115 meteres wide.
View attachment 707972

Obviously our metro area is a lot smaller so we dont need as many trains. But if we wanted anything of similar magnitude the only place wide enough in the core is basically where the Grand central station is planned to go (Although I don't think its planned to use all the land I've measured here?)
View attachment 707973

I'm pretty sure when Union was built, it was a very similar context to Victoria Park today. It was not the centre of downtown, but the edge of it. This is before Scotiabank Arena, and anything was built on the South side. If they go ahead with GC (who knows with the oil prices now), it'd be a generational investment. In a few decades, the EV/Victoria Park will be filled out and the station won't feel so out of place of downtown.

 

[darwink]

A heavy rail reroute was where my mind was starting to wander to as well. I wonder if something like that could still be in the cards?

It really would open up some enormous opportunities within the city, and should be a whole lot cheaper than grade separating HSR in the core.

I don't agree. New ROW, thats longer and more elevation change. Relocating/making the CPR yards far less efficient. CPR doesn't expect one time payments based on capital cost, it is one time or continual payments based on changes in operating cost.

Elevation profiles:

Spoiler: Elevation Profiles Current mainline:reroute north:reroute south:

Edit: putting a table inside of the spoilers tag messed up the table. Not going to fix it, i'm sure folks will get the jist.

 

[lemongrab]

A heavy rail reroute was where my mind was starting to wander to as well. I wonder if something like that could still be in the cards?

It really would open up some enormous opportunities within the city, and should be a whole lot cheaper than grade separating HSR in the core.

As darwink says there is very little reason for CPKC to even consider it. If the carrot is fully twinned tracks to Banff and up Nose Creek then I'm sure they take the meeting, but they could just hold out for those benefits without giving up anything so substantial. Even twinning Nose Creek isn't much of a benefit in my scenario because that section becomes interlined for the W and N lines.

For the city, some of the big opportunities have passed. It's more compelling If you know it's an option that replaces a $2B tunnel and a couple hundred million in 2010 money for Sunalta elevated section (while not compromising some high potential land in West DT). A lot of the benefit is in the long-term potential for EV/Vic Park and WV, but the heavy rail tracks are pretty far down the list of things hindering the full realization of that potential right now.

But damn...imagine if 9 Ave could have contiguous flow from Inglewood right down to Studio Bell. Cold Garden and Fair's Fair are probably in the way of building CADE today...we should plop them back down on the west of the Elbow between 9th and the tracks!

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

I don't agree. New ROW, thats longer and more elevation change. Relocating/making the CPR yards far less efficient. CPR doesn't expect one time payments based on capital cost, it is one time or continual payments based on changes in operating cost.

Elevation profiles:

Spoiler: Elevation Profiles Current mainline:reroute north:reroute south:View attachment 708324View attachment 708325 View attachment 708326View attachment 708327 View attachment 708328

Edit: putting a table inside of the spoilers tag messed up the table. Not going to fix it, i'm sure folks will get the jist.

I wasn't suggesting a full reroute, the expense of that wouldn't be worth it now, maybe not ever.

But the route @lemongrab suggested wouldn't require moving the yards, just increased tracks in nose creek and then new row west before Airdrie.

The portion of this west of deerfoot basically, although I do think this whole route would be worth planning for long term, there's just so much other infill to be done before reclaiming the Inglewood / odgden lands becomes appealing.

I can't see new ROW & track there being all that expensive, might even be something that works in CPs favor up there too. New intermodal yards maybe? Is there another ring road planned before Airdrie? Could work along with that too.

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

Even twinning Nose Creek isn't much of a benefit in my scenario because that section becomes interlined for the W and N lines.

So quad it!