[Antiloop33rpm]

In the other thread a few people started to head off into a discussion about how immigration and other factors affect population growth in the city. Immigration does play a central role in Canada and its growth. Is this policy healthy? Should we be worried that our more urban areas are growing only because of immigration?

Personally, what matters to me is that cities are growing and whether that growth is the result of newly arrived Canadians or those born in the country is really not of importance. I tend to think that it is just a reflection of the nature of our country as a whole and more quirky and unique than anything else.

But perhaps others here have a different opinion on this subject?

 

[Canuck 36]

The only concern I can think of is do these new immigrants require more services that "typical canadian" (and as an offshoot do we have a proper funding formula to provide for it), and does the average immigrant Toronto receives genearte as much tax revenue as that hypothetical "typical canadian"?

Or maybe my concern is moot if the entire city population is growing and each new resident generates an average positive economic growth versus services used.

My rationale is also thinking in the long run, which logic would dictate to further negate my initial concern.

 

[miketoronto]

The only issue with our population only growing by immigration, is that once the immigrants set themselves up, they flee the central city for the 905.

We need a balance of new immigrants and people who want in Toronto for the long term and not just untill they can afford to get the hell out to their McMansion in the burbs.

 

[unimaginative2]

I don't really think that's true, Mike. Most of the traditional immigrant reception areas downtown are now the areas with the highest housing price increases. Clearly there are many people, both immigrant and non-immigrant who desire to live in these areas. I think you might have a point that immigrants are choosing to move to suburbs like Scarborough and Rexdale first, and then leaving for Richmond Hill and Mississauga once they're more established.

 

[jeicow]

Actually I was watching Global Sunday two weeks ago and they were talking about the whole illegal immigrant issue and according to the Ontario Minister that was on (one for cities I think), the number of new immigrants settling in Peel/York is almost equal not to the number in Toronto, and because of that there needs to be more funding in the 905, primarily in York, for immigrant services because of the change. I don't know how true his whole number thing is but I found that interesting.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ Part of the reason why may be because the houses in many parts of the 905 are large enough for extended families and/or illegal clans, groups that would have a much harder time finding a similar amount of room under one roof in the 416. Unfortunately, they have relatively limited access to public transit out in the 905.

 

[SD2]

The only concern I can think of is do these new immigrants require more services that "typical canadian" (and as an offshoot do we have a proper funding formula to provide for it), and does the average immigrant Toronto receives genearte as much tax revenue as that hypothetical "typical canadian"?

Don't you mean a "Regular Canadian"?

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

We need a balance of new immigrants and people who want in Toronto for the long term and not just untill they can afford to get the hell out to their McMansion in the burbs.

I dont see why immigrants should be held to some different standard than anyone else living in Canada. Once a person has landed in this country, they are free to do the same as any other person in this country. And that includes moving to the suburbs. That might not jive with your opinion on how and where people should live, but, Canada is a free country and people can do whatever they want so until an authoritarian, anti-suburb government is installed in this country understand that people want to, can, and will continue to want to live in the suburbs, just as you yourself do.

 

[tudararms]

^That's not true at all. An 'immigrant' is not a 'Canadian' at all. Being Canadian requires 'citizenship'...duh!! Moreover, being permitted as a resident or immigrant is a priviledge and not a right, and governments can and do often put stipulations on this.

 

[Oliver Tweed]

I think the key issue here is the ability of Canadian society to integrate immigrants into the fold. The number of ultra-educated taxi drivers in this city is shocking and should be a national embarassment. The government demands that people be educated to get in, but their education is rendered nearly worthless once they enter the job market.

 

[Chuck100]

The number of ultra-educated taxi drivers in this city is shocking and should be a national embarassment.

Even within Canada, there are differing standards of education at different post secondary institutions. When you start to compare standards between Canada and overseas countries, an even larger gap may or may not appear when looking at "typical" universities. It may not be enough to say that just because someone has graduated from a university overseas, they are qualified to work in the Canadian workplace. MAY not, because there still are many immigrants who are underemployed.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

Incidentally, the information is now older but you can get precise neighbourhood by neighbourhood demographic figures on the Toronto city website if you are curious.

I think we need to strongly consider the immigration, intra-regional and intra-provincial figures. It DOES matter where people come from in the sense that there are different factors strengths and weaknesses of our city influencing the desirability of it for different types of people. I don't suspect it is possible but why not try and buck the North American trend where there is a net out-migration of people from the laregest cities? Why not be a magnet for foreigners and Canadian's alike? On the immigration front I think we have no real coordinated policy and are therefore really just resting on our laurels assuming Toronto will be the destination of choice for most immigrants. This is partly a lie because in reality there are probably just as many opportunities and services available to a new comer elsewhere in Canada.

In terms of inter-regional and inter-provincial migration the real sticking point is cost so why not identify and target the cost of living in the city or quality of life issues that would attract more Canadians particularly families. We might not be able to compete on a cost per square foot basis but what about making sure there are family options in the multi-residential housing market or focusing on making the Toronto district School Board the best bar none education system in the country? What about allowing [people to build up to four storeys on all residential lots making the option of substantially increasing the living space of a standard city lot to accommodate more people or more room for families? Anyway just some ideas.

 

[miketoronto]

I think the out-mirgration can also be because of the size Toronto is now. Toronto has now reached over 5 million people. And while we may like it, it is this size that is making people flee. The city is just to large now for many people. Thats why they are fleeing the entire region if they can, to places like Calgary, or Vancouver, or Kitchener, etc.

After a city gets a certain size, many people don't like it anymore. Just like NYC. Many people like visiting, but they don't want to live there anymore, because its to large now, the region.

Talk to some normal residents who are not into urban issues in the GTA. And you will the hear the same thing, that they wish Toronto would stop growing and that they don't like all these new people moving here, because it is making the population to big.

I was just talking with my aunt in Brampton and even she was complaining how Brampton has grown to much now, and her peacefull suburb has been ruined with traffic and all the other problems that a region of 5 million is going to have.

If the region was smaller I don't think we would have an out-mirgration of Canadians.

 

[bizorky]

Talk to some normal residents who are not into urban issues in the GTA

What does that say of us?

As for the aunt in Brampton, sorry but aunty is a nimby. A classic case of "I have moved here, nobody else should now."

People move in and out of cities all the time for different reasons. Since you are making reference to the GTA, and since you are including people who have moved out to the suburbs: what is the difference? If someone finds too big a population in the burbs of the GTA, then they will find exactly the same populations in the suburbs of all major cities in the country.

I have my doubts that people flee the GTA to Calgary because of population. First of all, it would be a rather extreme response; and second, Calgary has suburban sprawl no different than Toronto or Montreal.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

mike, you honestly think that Toronto is too big? My father's been in this country for thirty five years. He was born in Buenos Aires (pop. ~8 million, just in the city proper). He still refers to Toronto as a "small town". And it is. When we get to half of Buenos Aires' size, or New York's, then talk to me about being too large.