IanO
Superstar
The good ol' missing middle that will save civilization, er cities.
- Thread starter SRC Admin
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Marcolangzi
New Member
We’re getting close to request a public hearing for council approval (or not). We appreciate if people could take some time to leave their comments to the city planners.You have until Sept 6 to provide comments.
LDA20-0066 Metro 78- McKernan/Belgravia
The proposed zoning from the current (RF1) Single Detached Residential Zone(External link) to a revised (DC2) Site-Specific Development Control Provision would allow for the development of two mid-rise apartment buildings with the following characteristics:
A maximum height of 23 .0 m per building or approximately 6 storeys (previously 14.5 metres or approximately 4 storeys)
Up to 71 residential units per building for a total of 142 units (previously 55 residential units per building for a total of 110 units)
A maximum floor area ratio of 4.0 (previously 2.45)
Ground level commercial space fronting a public plaza and the 114 Street shared use path. Opportunities for commercial uses include specialty food services, retail, and personal service shops.
Vehicular and surface parking that is accessed from the proposed north-south lanes west of the properties
LDA20-0066 Metro 78 - McKernan
(Applicant Rendering, subject to change) ***The discussion has concluded and a What We Heard Report is now available here. *** Thank you for participating in engagement activities for this rezoning application. For any further inquiries regarding this application,engaged.edmonton.ca
archited
Senior Member
Good luck with this one, Marco. From a density, a TOD project, and an excellent architectural project (design perspective) you have hit this one out of the park! This is precisely the kind of project that this area needs; I am 100% in favor.
rake
New Member
Just re-upping this - unfortunately the Engaged Edmonton page is not going so great on this one. I would encourage everyone to put in a good work to balance the viewpoints a bit. As @IanO mentioned, this closes on September 6th.
https://engaged.edmonton.ca/metro78
https://engaged.edmonton.ca/metro78
MacLac
Senior Member
Whoa now, whoa now….are these Nimbys that insane? Good God! I’m ashamed to call these people fellow citizens…..lol! Venom spewing, god fearing, torch carrying……
Marcolangzi
New Member
Thank you! I would appreciate the effort.
northlands
Senior Member
I don't ever read those Engaged Edmonton pages, so I'm not sure what is par for the course on those, but there are close to a 100 feedback comments submitted on there, almost all VERY up in arms about this. Gotta hand it to BelMac residents, that's some serious push back, lots with somewhat justifiable points about it violating the established ARP guidelines etc.
This one was pretty funny though (or is this all tongue-in-cheek?):
This one was pretty funny though (or is this all tongue-in-cheek?):
archited
Senior Member
...and these people can vote?!?! Naysayers are such a pain in the Applecart. Mumble, mumble -- development bad; mumble, mumble -- Edmonton bad; mumble mumble -- let's move to Kelowna
IanO
Superstar
thommyjo
Senior Member
Hop on there and make your comments heard people!
We can't allow projects like this to be stopped or we are in deep trouble as a city!
I believe in democracy, but also believe in valuing the opinions of experts. Most opinions expressed by the community go against good urban planning principles and logic. We can't let nimbys overturn planning professionals. Same reason we trust doctors when it comes to all the covid stuff. Every voice should be heard, but not all opinions are equal for every topic. Those educated in a field should have greater say.
Build this thing! Please!
We can't allow projects like this to be stopped or we are in deep trouble as a city!
I believe in democracy, but also believe in valuing the opinions of experts. Most opinions expressed by the community go against good urban planning principles and logic. We can't let nimbys overturn planning professionals. Same reason we trust doctors when it comes to all the covid stuff. Every voice should be heard, but not all opinions are equal for every topic. Those educated in a field should have greater say.
Build this thing! Please!
Marcolangzi
New Member
We plan to respond to all comments on a report to the City, but since you brought it up, I'm happy to dedicate a special response to this one.
This idea of not following the ARP policies is flawed.
Anyone, developer, consultant or resident can apply to amend an ARP. This is the rule which we are following. The ARP fails to provide an economic mechanism to implement its vision. It explicitly says that developers should bear with the costs which may be done through direct control zoning, but doesn't say if the DC2 can increase the FAR, height or both. The ARP also fails to recognize that 78 Avenue is a pedestrian gateway. It only talks about vehicular gateways. This is the 2014 Planning mindset. We really question this approach.
Most importantly, the new City Plan approved last year takes precedence over any ARP. While the ARP restricts the height to four storeys, the City Plan designates the UofA area a Principal Node and 114 Street a Secondary Corridor. These designations open up opportunities for a range of building forms much more intense than four-storey buildings.
And before I forget, only firetrucks can back onto the plaza in case of an emergency. I doubt there would be kids playing there in case of a fire. Just saying...
thommyjo
Senior Member
Amen! As a new board member of a community league that redid its ARP a few years ago, I strongly disagree with the methods used for ARP community engagement and creation.
The average age of the committee that developed our west jasper/sherwood ARP was over 65 years old.
How can we allow mostly retired, non children raising, soon to be moving out or passing away (sorry to be harsh) people to determine what can and cannot be built? Shouldn't the newer, younger residents...those with children, etc have a greater say? And they might argue anyone is allowed to voice their opinions, but the reality is that cranky old retired people can go to months and months of 2-3hr meetings, while young families are simply too busy for that type of process.
People are too transient to get a huge say in their existing neighbourhood IMO. The city needs to hire good planners, people need to make buying decisions or renting choices based on the city plans, and then we have to live with it.
As a homeowner, I get the stress and impacts changes around you can have on your quality of life, asset value, etc. But residents are not qualified to build a great city. Thats why there are professionals with degrees in this. Its hard work. Reaidents can help, but they shouldn't overpower educated planning decisions.
archited
Senior Member
Your comments @thommyjo are loaded with ageism-tainted bigotry. In a democracy everyone should get an equal say. I sense and understand your frustration. In your opinion at what age should people's ideas and opinions become irrelevant? "Planning" should not be a rigid platform and that is what "zoning" tends to do. "Planning" should not be prescriptive; it should be reactive to current needs -- and therefore planners should not lead development, they should qualify it in terms of community trends and growth generators. Cities have many examples of poor planning decisions... and what is valid for Central Paris, or Central New York City, or Central Los Angeles shows that Cities cannot and should not be planned in a one-size-fits-all idiom. Thinking more granular, neither should communities be designed in that manner. In Edmonton, Strathcona should not emulate the U of A precinct, nor the downtown precinct, nor Terwilliger. Marco's project maybe doesn't fit existing zoning, but it should be allowed to proceed because it is "need generated" in a location that is increasing in density. "Planning" should support it, not mandate it -- there is a difference.
Edmonchuk
Active Member
Belgravia is a very nice neighbourhood, some streets were totally demolished and replaced with, again, new SINGLE-DETACHED houses. I kinda get the feeling what kind of community that is - very much opposed to any development, but single-detached. Very central with great access to LRT, UofA, hospital. It's going to be a fight!
rake
New Member
I didn't really read any problematic ageist rhetoric into the post. It is well documented that typical 'community engagement' processes consistently over-represent older, whiter, and wealthier resident interests relative to actual community demographics. This was backed up by a legitimate piece of evidence from a recent ARP update in the post. If anything, the overreliance on this sort of traditional community engagement is in and of itself a 'capturing' of democratic processes by a relatively small group of homeowners - the exact opposite of everyone getting an equal say.
In light of this historical over-representation, it is pretty reasonable to ask how engagement processes could be adjusted to provide greater levels of engagement from younger families, renters, and other community groups that would better reflect the actual community. I think a lot of people (I would count myself among them) are going to look at the problem and conclude that these engagement processes are fundamentally prone to being captured by special interests - thus becoming undemocratic - and the only solution is to simply reduce our reliance on them.
I can see how this could be viewed as turning over the whole process to 'Planning,' but the reality is that simply cannot occur within the legalities of our current system. Planning can be a catalyst for change (too often, it isn't even that), but it has real legal limitations placed on it, and final approvals will always lay in the hands of Council. If these folks have strong NIMBY sentiments, they have every opportunity to vote for NIMBY Councilors who can cast NIMBY votes - that's actual democracy at work.
Having said that, as long as these engagement processes persist, we may as well capture them for our own special interests - comment on that Engaged Edmonton board people!