[kEiThZ]

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/700152

Given the upcoming budget crunch for the TTC, I'd like to see what kind of ideas are out there other than fares and government subsidies for transit funding.

I'd like to see zone fares come back (with more than 2 zones though). And I'd like to see a congestion charge implemented in the core, with the money going towards funding transit.

 

[rbt]

I'd like to see zone fares come back (with more than 2 zones though). And I'd like to see a congestion charge implemented in the core, with the money going towards funding transit.

A congestion charge could take 4+ years, possibly more, to implement at the municipal level. At very least it would be taken to court by CAA and the like; at worst it would require legislation changes to the City of Toronto act. Any politician supporting it would be out of a job before it was implemented.

If a GTA congestion charge came down from the province, however, it could probably be done in 1 year for forgotten by the next election.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I was at a presentation at the Toronto Board of Trade this morning that (kind of) explored just this question. The chair of Translink shared his comments on how Vancouver's getting their funding, and some of it was actually rather illuminating. Didn't say much about Toronto, but there were plenty of general points for our poor non-eurasian transit systems.

But I'd say that outsourcing will be very good. Private sector drivers and janitors would probably be very good for the system and could save a bunch.
Driverless subways will be great too.
The TTC should also encourage some more above-station-building. Gives them more money from rent. I think that Hong Kong and Tokyo get most of their funds from rent, even though they'd break even anyways.
The LRTs will be good for heavy routes though. Replacing 4 or 5 drivers for 1 driver can never be a bad thing.
And finally, if none of those work, maybe they could just raise the metropass price like $10?

As for road tolls and such though, I think that Metrolinx should really use road tolls/congestion charges for system improvements. That'd take a whole bunch of pressure off the province to provide the capital for the massive amount of improvements the GTA needs. After the big move, they can be used to subsidy transit and for upkeep.

 

[Tuscani01]

A congestion charge could take 4+ years, possibly more, to implement at the municipal level. At very least it would be taken to court by CAA and the like; at worst it would require legislation changes to the City of Toronto act. Any politician supporting it would be out of a job before it was implemented.

If a GTA congestion charge came down from the province, however, it could probably be done in 1 year for forgotten by the next election.

Im pretty sure the City of Toronto Act gives the city permission to implement road tolls and congestion charges. They can also tax alcohol and parking. They would not need 4 years to implement road tolls or congestion fees. Look how fast the land transfer tax was put into effect, or the garbage fees.

As for politicians supporting it being out of a job, I don't think so. If they sell it right, they would be fine. Its either higher property taxes for all, or user fees for some.

 

[GraphicMatt]

At least 1 point of the PST (soon HST) should go directly to municipalities for operational costs like transit.

 

[nfitz]

Any politician supporting it would be out of a job before it was implemented.

Miller campaigned in 2003 on putting in a congestion charge - it didn't seem to hurt him. The province then passed the City of Toronto act so that they could implement it.

Given that this was Miller's mandate when elected, perhaps he should go ahead and do it.

 

[kettal]

Better than road tolls:

A tax on every public or business use parking spot in the central city south of Eglinton, plus every spot within 400m of a subway station. Like $30/month per spot, which goes to TTC funding.

 

[kEiThZ]

Miller campaigned in 2003 on putting in a congestion charge - it didn't seem to hurt him. The province then passed the City of Toronto act so that they could implement it.

Given that this was Miller's mandate when elected, perhaps he should go ahead and do it.

I second this. It might not be popular in the inner suburbs but they'd quickly get over it, if the money went to improving transit or keeping TTC fares down. The only people who would really suffer are 905 commuters. As for commercial traffic, I am sure something can be worked out.

 

[Tuscani01]

Better than road tolls:

A tax on every public or business use parking spot in the central city south of Eglinton, plus every spot within 400m of a subway station. Like $30/month per spot, which goes to TTC funding.

Thats actually a good idea. It would be like the 5 cent plastic bag charge, but instead of the revenue going to the business it would go to the city. $30 a month is $1 a day. A retailer can easily make that by charging 10-25 cents for parking.

 

[kEiThZ]

At least 1 point of the PST (soon HST) should go directly to municipalities for operational costs like transit.

The 1 cent campaign is so passe. And with the feds and the provinces rolling in deficits, we are far more likely to see them raise sales taxes for their own revenue generation targets than to hand over money to the cities. A region wide 1% sales tax though might be a good alternative.

 

[kettal]

Thats actually a good idea. It would be like the 5 cent plastic bag charge, but instead of the revenue going to the business it would go to the city. $30 a month is $1 a day. A retailer can easily make that by charging 10-25 cents for parking.

I like to think of it as more of a $1 per day a congestion charge. Just instead of collecting a toll when you drive into the city, you kind of pay it when you park the car in the city.

 

[Chuck]

When strictly talking finances, the city should be careful about over taxing motorists...

If 75% of drivers switched to transit, each and every street would still have to be plowed, highways would still have to be maintained, and roads resurfaced and repaired every year - they'd now be pounded by bus tires instead. Meanwhile, the operating budget of the TTC would balloon, the capital budget would go through the roof due to mandatory subway construction, and hundreds of millions of dollars would be lost from fewer street parking permits, less Green P parking revenues, and fewer people paying the Miller license renewal tax. Again, thinking only in terms of cash flow, each driver lost to the TTC ironically puts the city more and more in the red.

If every resident gave up their car for good and switched to the TTC, the city would go broke.

I believe that city council needs to wake up and realize that no matter how much it costs to maintain, the TTC is a net benefit to the GTA. They need to accept the fact that public transit is by definition a money losing entity, and just start giving it more money. It's not a question of siphoning more money off motorists, it's about allocating funds more responsibly. And, most importantly, not allowing construction to begin on over budget subway stations until sufficient frills are removed to bring costs back within budget.

Edit: The best new funding source for the TTC and transit in general is pooled transit funding from/toward all GTA municipalities.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Actually, it'd be so cool if that happened.

But hopefully, that's what's going to happen over the next 30 or 40 years (maybe not that drastic, but along those lines.) I think that's a reasonable amount of time to build a crapload of subways, LRTs, BRTs, Regional Rail routes and buy 4000 or so more busses.

 

[Paleo]

Edit: The best new funding source for the TTC and transit in general is pooled transit funding from/toward all GTA municipalities.

How would that work? Toronto spends more of each tax dollar on TTC than the surrounding regions do on their respective systems. Would they be happy about pooling if we didn't bring up their service to TTC standards? Would they be forced to pay more taxes to fund transit? (up to at least the level that Toronto funds the TTC at)

 

[GraphicMatt]

The 1 cent campaign is so passe. And with the feds and the provinces rolling in deficits, we are far more likely to see them raise sales taxes for their own revenue generation targets than to hand over money to the cities. A region wide 1% sales tax though might be a good alternative.

It's not really about the 1 cent campaign but rather the weird disconnect between my tax money and what it is used for. Cities deserve a piece of tax revenue, whether sales or income, because they are responsible for providing vital services. 1 point of the sales tax is just an easy first step.

Cuts to city services will have a measured and immediate impact on people, whereas there are a number of cutbacks you could make to provincial and federal services that would be more transparent. So why are the cities always the ones forced to make the tough decisions?

I'd be okay with a sales tax increase of 1 or even 2 points to bring us back to where we were with the 7% GST, but such a policy is electoral suicide.