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unimaginative2

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Liberals to propose handgun ban
Wednesday, December 7, 2005 Posted at 10:26 PM EST

Canadian Press

Ottawa — Prime Minister Paul Martin will venture into a violence-plagued area of Toronto on Thursday to announce a sweeping ban on handguns.

Mr. Martin was scheduled to visit Toronto's troubled Jane-Finch area to make a "safer communities announcement." Liberal sources have confirmed the announcement includes a ban on handguns.

No other details were immediately available.

Handguns are already severely restricted in Canada and a handgun registry has been in force for more than 60 years.

But a rash of recent gun deaths in Toronto has prompted Martin to promise to crack down even more. Gunfire was responsible for 50 of the 74 murders so far this year in the city.

The rash of shootings prompted city police to launch a gun amnesty program in November, during which they collected 261 weapons and more than 1,500 rounds of ammunition.

A ban on handguns is likely to be popular in other large urban centres as well, like Montreal and Vancouver, where residents have been disturbed by recent firearms violence.

Windsor MP Joe Comartin, the New Democratic Party's justice critic, said the announcement sounds like "smoke and mirrors."

"Basically, all handguns in Canada are illegal now," said Mr. Comartin. "The only people who get permits are those who are using them for recreational purposes or those who need it for their own personal safety and there's not a lot of those that are granted."

He said the announcement sounds like "a political ploy during an election to garner some headlines and make it look like you're actually doing something when, in fact, what you're proposing is pretty meaningless."

Given the number of stolen guns used in crime, Mr. Comartin said there had been some discussion earlier this year at the all-party Commons justice committee about tightening regulations governing safe storage and use of handguns. But that is something that falls under provincial jurisdiction.

Mr. Comartin said the one thing the federal government could do would be to stop the flow of illegal firearms into Canada from the United States.

It remains to be seen how the ban will go over in rural areas, where the issue is more about rifles. Many Prairie rifle owners have never forgiven the Liberals for creating a registry for long guns.

Created 10 years ago, the registry was supposed to cost a mere $2-million. Instead, its cost has ballooned to more than $1-billion.

The Conservatives, who declined comment on the expected handgun ban Wednesday, have called the program a boondoggle and Auditor General Sheila Fraser has sharply criticized the waste and mismanagment that have pervaded the registry.

Gun owners warned at the time that the registry was the first step toward confiscation of their guns. Mr. Martin's announcement may be seen as confirmation of their worst fears.

The Liberals, who desperately need to regain support in Quebec and hang on to their urban base in Ontario, appear to be willing to sacrifice their meagre support in the Prairies in a bid to bolster their central Canadian base.

But the gambit may yet cost Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan her Edmonton seat and make it more difficult for Finance Minister Ralph Goodale to hang on to his somewhat safer Regina riding.

Currently, handguns in Canada are classified as either restricted or prohibited weapons.

Canadians can receive a licence to own a restricted weapon if they can prove it's part of a gun collection or used for target practice or target-shooting competitions. They can also be granted licences to use the firearm under "limited circumstances," such as in the role of a police officer.

Initial reaction to the handgun ban was predictably negative from the firearms lobby.

"It's going to accomplish nothing," said Wayne Fields of LaSalle, Ont., president of the Law-Abiding Registered Firearms Association. "There's already all types of legislation and illegal use of handguns is out of control."

Mr. Fields said the Liberals have long been focusing their energy in the wrong direction.

"They have to concentrate on the illegal drugs and the criminals that are using the firearms — get them off the street. They're not going to get rid of guns — it's impossible."

Mr. Fields said while he doesn't think the announcement will do Mr. Martin any good on the national stage, he admitted it might get him some votes in Ontario, and particularly in Toronto.

"He's trying to protect his strength here in Ontario against the Conservatives, in particular in Toronto where they're strong. The election is going to be won or lost in Ontario.

"Why the Conservatives haven't made it an (election) issue is beyond me."

He said any legislation to either register or ban guns is "lame-duck legislation because half the gun owners aren't licensed and two-thirds of the guns aren't registered."

Kin Chung, who owns a gun shop in Vancouver, said he opposes any kind of sweeping ban on handguns because legitimate dealers like him would lose up to 80 per cent of their business.

"I'm absolutely not happy," he said.

Mr. Chung said a ban would also not be welcome by law-abiding citizens who register their guns as required by law and use them for target shooting, for example.

"Those who buy a gun legitimately, got a licence, go through a safety course, they are not about to commit a crime."

Most guns used by gangs aren't registered because they're often smuggled into Canada to commit violence, Mr. Chung said. "They should plug that hole."

He said Ottawa needs to address other issues, such as drugs and gang violence that often lead to shootings.
 
This is a useless idea but it will probably get some votes. Mandatory gun registration is enough to determine who should have a gun and who shouldn't and which guns are legal and which ones are not. The issue now is preventing guns from entering the country illegally and finding the unregistered guns in the country. Unless you can do that there is nothing that can be done. How many people committed a gun crime but could not be charged with a firearms possession offence because they had properly registered the gun? Tighten the gun ownership requirements so that people with a criminal history can't own guns if you want to improve the law... but that still won't FIND illegal weapons.
 
This is a useless idea but it will probably get some votes.

I agree.

Mandatory gun registration is enough to determine who should have a gun and who shouldn't and which guns are legal and which ones are not.

I disagree there. The FAC process should have been enough to do that. The gun registry has been a complete waste of money, and is unlikely to ever work properly.

How many people committed a gun crime but could not be charged with a firearms possession offence because they had properly registered the gun?

Absolutely none. 0. Nada.

Firearms possession and the gun registry are two different offences. If someone is caught with a gun while they're committing a crime, the failure to register it is the least of their problems.

Tighten the gun ownership requirements so that people with a criminal history can't own guns if you want to improve the law

That was done years ago with the FAC. It's done now with the new system.
 
This really should be in the Politics subforum. A no-brainer for the Liberals. I have a hard time believing that gun-shop owners, gun collectors and registered target shooters are voting Liberal. I do agree though, I have a hard time believing that this will help at all to solve the problem in TO.
 
mandatory minimum.

caught with a gun 5 years. minimum.

EDIT : and no bail.
 
the only guns people should possess are the ones God gave them at birth.

got lots of man-unition in mine. tell the ladies.

;)
 
I realize this proposal is mostly about politics (and optics), but I still support it.
 
Rape is banned too, yet women keep getting assaulted.

Meanwhile....

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.

Smuggling

The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

"Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."

He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.

Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated.

Ammunition

Examples of illegally manufactured guns include screwdrivers being adapted to fire off one round, he said.

The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons.

Operation Trident, which investigates "black on black" shootings in the UK, has made more than 300 arrests, recovered 100 firearms and 1,500 rounds of ammunition since it was established a year ago.

The Home Office said measures were being taken to tackle handgun crime, including an intensified effort against illegally smuggled weapons.
 
apples and oranges blix.

the least a total hand gun ban will do is prevent guns from being stolen from people who own them legally.

this is how alot of illegal hand guns end up on the street. they're stolen from people who buy them for the purpose of protecting their families from criminals, but the problem is that they end up in the hands of the criminals and it's the legit person that ends up on the wrong side of the barrel.

of course this isn't a long term solution because the criminals will get smart and find other ways but at least it will buy some time. it's kinda like windows updates, the security patch will fix one hole but others will soon be found by hackers. you can't prevent this but when you start to see the new holes emerge, you get to work on them.
 
Bravo Martin.
Although this is politically incited (isn't that why we have elections anyway?), it is a welcome move. Nobody needs a handgun to go hunting and those holding one to protect themselves are more likely to be shot by one than to use the one their holding. It takes guts to fire a gun at somebody and many times the cold criminal is the first on the draw.

Martin gained some brownie points for this one. I hope he rolls out a campaign of improvements to prevent guns from coming in at the border.
 
of course this isn't a long term solution because the criminals will get smart and find other ways but at least it will buy some time.

It'll buy maybe six months until the criminals expand their alternate supply sources. In order to buy that six months, Martin has not only gone after law-abiding Canadians and alienated a lot of the centre-right, he's going to blow the whole regional unity issue wide open.

It's not even like it won't be reversed. If any of the provinces don't go along with this (hello Alberta), the entire law will be struck down because of selective prosecution.

Martin really is a moron.
 
This is not a Liberal policy to make the streets safer or fight crime. The reality is that handguns are practically illigal as is. Futhermore the overwhelming majority of handgun shootings are not from registered guns. The point of this policy is to force the Conservatives to be against gun control and thus be positioned farther to the right on a position they would othewise like to be. The Conservatives (and actually the NDP this election too - witness Jack Layton at King and Bay) are all trying to get to the centre where all the votes are. However, the grass roots conservatives of the Conservative party (esp in the West) will not let the Party go near supporting this type of policy (stinks fo the famously unpopular gun registry) so they will likely be forced to rail against it and then the Liberals can accuse them of being Albertan Republicans who want to sell canada to the NRA.
 
Handguns have been banned since 1934. There's nothing new to this, it's just a Liberal trap that may or may not work.
 
This is a highly political plan, but I support it none-the-less. The fewer handguns the better. I think the NDP would support it too, and maybe even the Bloc. Instead of pointing fingers and screaming "politics" maybe they should have continued working WITH the liberals to ensure conservatives don't take power.
 
Will banning handguns stop crimes being carried out with handguns? Probably not. As for the argument that it is only illegally imported guns that are being used for crimes, I'm not sure that there is enough evidence to support this view. I have no issue with restricting firearms (and my life would not be altered by a ban), nor do I have an issue with registering and requiring mandatory insurance if one wishes to own a firearm, but I think it is an error to believe that gun crimes would go away.

The idea that tougher penalties and longer prison times will reduce handgun based crimes also is baseless. If someone is going to jail for a crime committed with a gun, the crime already has been committed. If an individual is not deterred from committing a crime by the thought of actively pursuing the death of another person, I don't think a longer jail sentence will work at stopping that individual either. The United States has executed murderers, murder has not vanished.

Much of this issue has been amplified due to recent gun deaths in Toronto, yet this particular jump in crime is not understood particularly well, and only now are interested parties starting to ask the appropriate questions as to why this statistical rise in hangun crimes is taking place.
 

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