- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
Northern Light
Superstar
We're probably a similar age, but with me just a few years older; I can (barely) remember when those parking lots were still (partially) a rail yard.
Roy Thomson Hall was the CP Express Building site.
This crossing of Front, by Spadina was still active when I was very little (late 70s, perhaps just past '80?)
From: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Toronto/King_Street.htm
That train was headed here, to the yard that became the parking you remember:
Same link as above!
Northern Light
Superstar
junctionist
Senior Member
Fascinating stuff. I always wonder what was in the safe that was found in the mystery room in the tunnel at the Canadian Pacific property. The safe disappeared during the demolition and was never found. Also, the covered freight platform you see in this photo is really cool.
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Rascacielo
Senior Member
I don’t remember that, not because I was too young, but because I didn’t live in Toronto then. Level crossings downtown - kinda like Sudbury today.
mburrrrr
Senior Member
ML555
Active Member
Seeing the beautiful new grass is very satisfying, but I wonder given the location, how long it will last. Even the park closest to me, St. James, the grass has been damaged quite a bit due to the increase of pandemic dogs. Provided the amount of tourism at that specific corner, I would hope people wouldn't abuse the lawn, but seems unlikely. Hopefully it's resilient.
Rascacielo
Senior Member
How do other cities do it? Do parks in Montreal, NYC, Chicago, London, Paris, etc. have damaged grass due to dogs as well? Serious question, not trying to be snide. Surely we're not the only city with irresponsible dog owners.
Northern Light
Superstar
Here's Vancouver for you:
See section 2.5 (p.29)
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Here's an interesting study that suggests considering a different variety of grass:
Reducing turfgrass damage from dog urine - GCMOnline.com
Man’s best friend can be rather unfriendly to turf. Two studies looked into potential strategies for mitigating damage: more tolerant turf varieties and use of water repellents.
gcmonline.com
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There's a study underway in NYC currently looking at alternative ground covers to deal w/this issue:
Testing Plant Resilience — Madison Square Park Conservancy
madisonsquarepark.org
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In general, the issue is not dog urine per se, it's volume and concentration of same. There are several ways to mitigate this.
a) Create a place for the dog to pee that will not damage plants/grasses. (dedicated DOLA, dogs-off-leash-area), or Pet Relief area).
b) For parks w/o this, consider the use of non-living wooden or other poles that may attract said behavior, and surround them non-plant material or urine-resistant plants.
c) Create multiple points for this behavior to diffuse concentration.
d) Use irrigation to diffuse concentration. (only works up to a certain point)
e) employ measures which restrict pet access or discourage pet access to certain spaces. (use of fences, low or high, seats, hedges or other treatments) (these also work to discourage 'desire lines')
f) make sure plant areas are well established prior to letting dogs or people have access (difficult as people get irked seeing a complete park that is fenced off), but the virtue is that larger root systems and more established plants will generally have higher reliance.
Rascacielo
Senior Member
Love Park will have a DOLA, but that doesn't mean dog owners will let their dogs pee only within the DOLA, as can be seen from damages at other parks with DOLAs (Berczy, Grange Park, etc.). When I went to Manhattan last summer, I saw that their smaller parks (Madison Square, Washington Square among others) were generally well-maintained - none of these large patches of dead grass that we see here. I doubt that Manhattan dog owners are a lot more responsible than ours. Could it be that NYC have the funds and civic pride to maintain their parks and we don't?Here's Vancouver for you:
See section 2.5 (p.29)
****
Here's an interesting study that suggests considering a different variety of grass:
Reducing turfgrass damage from dog urine - GCMOnline.com
Man’s best friend can be rather unfriendly to turf. Two studies looked into potential strategies for mitigating damage: more tolerant turf varieties and use of water repellents.
****
There's a study underway in NYC currently looking at alternative ground covers to deal w/this issue:
Testing Plant Resilience — Madison Square Park Conservancy
****
In general, the issue is not dog urine per se, it's volume and concentration of same. There are several ways to mitigate this.
a) Create a place for the dog to pee that will not damage plants/grasses. (dedicated DOLA, dogs-off-leash-area), or Pet Relief area).
b) For parks w/o this, consider the use of non-living wooden or other poles that may attract said behavior, and surround them non-plant material or urine-resistant plants.
c) Create multiple points for this behavior to diffuse concentration.
d) Use irrigation to diffuse concentration. (only works up to a certain point)
e) employ measures which restrict pet access or discourage pet access to certain spaces. (use of fences, low or high, seats, hedges or other treatments) (these also work to discourage 'desire lines')
f) make sure plant areas are well established prior to letting dogs or people have access (difficult as people get irked seeing a complete park that is fenced off), but the virtue is that larger root systems and more established plants will generally have higher reliance.
Northern Light
Superstar
Note that Madison Park was the one running the experiment I linked to above. So I think it's safe to assume they are facing challenges.
The park has a conservancy, which likely answers your question. A conservancy means they have funds independent of, and in addition to those than NYC provides.
Get a load of the staff chart dedicated to this park alone:
Conservancy — Madison Square Park Conservancy
madisonsquarepark.org
Toronto does not employ the conservancy model for any parks.
Toronto Botanical Garden is attempting to become the closest thing we might have.
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Note that parks inequity is a big issue in NYC. Parks in affluent areas are much better maintained than those in low-income ones.
New York City Has 2,300 Parks. But Poor Neighborhoods Lose Out. (Published 2020)
Governors Island and other large parks are trying to attract more underserved visitors, who need outdoor space more than ever during the pandemic.
For every sparking Madison Square Park, there is a Horace Harding Playground
Or an Annadale Playground.
Both of the above are in Brooklyn.
Don't be fooled too easily by the showy spots. It would be like coming to Toronto and seeing Yorkville Park on Cumberland, or Berczy and then saying "Look at these lavish parks Toronto builds....."
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Rascacielo
Senior Member
I'm not surprised about the parks inequity issue in NYC or other American cities. Their showpiece (usually, but not always) downtown areas are vastly superior to ours, but you only have to walk a few blocks to see deprivations that would rival Vancouver's East Hastings. But that doesn't mean we should skimp on maintaining our parks in the name of equity. If conservancy is the way to do it, I'm more than willing to chip in my share - only I don't want to get involved in organizational politics (which seems to be inevitable in these cases).Note that Madison Park was the one running the experiment I linked to above. So I think it's safe to assume they are facing challenges.
The park has a conservancy, which likely answers your question. A conservancy means they have funds independent of, and in addition to those than NYC provides.
Get a load of the staff chart dedicated to this park alone:
Conservancy — Madison Square Park Conservancy
Toronto does not employ the conservancy model for any parks.
Toronto Botanical Garden is attempting to become the closest thing we might have.
****
Note that parks inequity is a big issue in NYC. Parks in affluent areas are much better maintained than those in low-income ones.
New York City Has 2,300 Parks. But Poor Neighborhoods Lose Out. (Published 2020)
Governors Island and other large parks are trying to attract more underserved visitors, who need outdoor space more than ever during the pandemic.www.nytimes.com
For every sparking Madison Square Park, there is a Horace Harding Playground
View attachment 448283
Or an Annadale Playground.
View attachment 448284
Both of the above are in Brooklyn.
Don't be fooled to easily by the showy spots. It would be like coming to Toronto and seeing Yorkville Park on Cumberland, or Berczy and then saying "Look at these lavish parks Toronto builds....."
Northern Light
Superstar
Toronto does under fund parks. Period. By a lot. Both operationally and capitally.
Parks, Forestry and Recreation does itself no favours in this regard, both through some incredibly bad spending decisions/designs, which I have reviewed extensively in regard to parks over in the problematic design thread, but also some internal and external cultural challenges.
Parks does not a do a good job of fostering external voices who could champion its spaces (Conservancies are one way to do that, but not the only model).
In general PF and R makes life difficult for those who would volunteer or even donate to improve a space rather than making it easy and inviting.
That choice confounds me, as it does not serve the best interest of the department or its staff.
Be that as it may, Parks has had an unfunded backlog of work it knows needs doing for two generations. David Miller was the last to make a vague attempt at getting it whittled down, but frankly didn't do
as much as he ought to have and still left parks with a big backlog of work upon his exit. But every other Mayor has seen the backlog materially increase.
Parks has largely been quiet in the face of an unending assault on its ability to maintain its spaces, dutifully cutting back on lawn mowing, and surrendering garbage pick-up responsibilities to waste management (who gave us the current ugly receptacles).
It's too long a diatribe here to itemize all the issues; but let's be blunt, we need to provide the department a lot more money; we need to let/mandate the department to accept more outside help, in money and in kind, we need to set higher standards, we need greater accountability and we need a change in leadership at the top.
That would be a good place to start.
I would only then add, as noted above, for all Toronto's challenges, many other places face similar ones. The details vary, but the gist is often similar; and the grass, collectively, is rarely greener.
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UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
...and yet we cry out for more parks to be built. And building more parks even. /sigh
Northern Light
Superstar
There is a need for more park space, even as too much of what's there is underfunded. The City is growing exponentially and buying land is unlikely to get any cheaper. There is also a dedicated power (S.42) that requires parkland or cash-in-lieu from most large rezoning applications.
The thing is, Parks needs to improve its technical expertise in design; both to elevate it, but also to be conscious how it will be maintained in real-word conditions. The cost of that maintenance needs to be funded by Council, each and every time a new park is approved.
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