[nicetommy]

90 Harbour St. below Union Station is considered a potential site for new intercity coach station

Aug 22, 2007 04:30 AM

TORONTO STAR ARTICLE

Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter

The longstanding idea of moving Toronto's intercity coach terminal to Union Station from its existing location at Bay and Dundas Sts. could finally be realized under Ontario's new regional transportation planning body.

The existing bus terminal is owned by the TTC and used by carriers such as Greyhound and Coach Canada. But the space and the location have long been considered inadequate, with insufficient room for buses to park so passengers can board and disembark.

The Greater Toronto Transportation Authority board will decide Friday whether to proceed with a six-month study of the implications of moving the terminal to the provincially owned former OPP headquarters at 90 Harbour St., now used mostly for film shoots.

"I think it's worth the GTTA looking to see whether there's a viable proposal that can be made," chair Rob MacIsaac said yesterday.

"We'll talk to all the players and the private sector and see what the possibilities are."

A GTTA report recommends the transit authority – created by the province to develop an integrated transportation plan for Greater Toronto – take the lead in incorporating an intercity bus terminal into the Union Station hub. It also suggests the GTTA signal interest in the Harbour St. property, just south of the Gardiner, before the site is eaten up by burgeoning residential and commercial development.

The GTTA study would consider the possibility of building a covered walkway between the Harbour St. site and Union Station and integrating that with tunnels that link to office towers farther north.

The study would also look at rapid bus access to the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway, including links to proposed dedicated bus lanes on the DVP.

A bus terminal "could further enhance Union Station as a major inter-regional mobility hub," according to the report. The study would consider how intercity bus service would work with other regional transit programs, Union Station redevelopment and Toronto's vision of reconnecting the waterfront with the downtown business district.

Private coach operators are "ecstatic" about the idea, according to the head of the Ontario Motor Coach Association.

Brian Crow said the location, close to the expressway, would shave up to 15 minutes off Toronto arrival times. Inadequate bus parking space at the Dundas St. terminal means coaches are regularly ticketed by the city; that cost one operator $78,000 last year, according to Crow.

The existing terminal, which hasn't been significantly updated since 1984, is dismal, he said. "Passengers have to drag their bags across Elizabeth St. to get into the main part of the terminal."

Operators have dreamed of moving out since about 1995, when the TTC flirted with the idea of selling its Bay St. building, Crow said. The association investigated moving the terminal into the old CP freight sheds, but that space was given to GO Transit.

An earlier proposal to move to Harbour St., which included a proposed walkway between the terminal and the train station over Lake Shore Blvd. and under the Gardiner, also stalled.

Linking the coach station to GO train and bus services and the TTC makes sense for private operators trying to get a share of the commuter business, as well as the public carriers that would be receiving passengers from other cities.

The GTTA study would consider governance and ownership issues of a new terminal, but Crow said the coach operators would be pleased if the property was owned by the city's Toronto Economic Development Corp. and leased to them.

 

[rbt]

The connecting path should be very easy to build in 2010 with Maple Leaf Square being the obvious connection point.

Might actually get done this time given that reduction in capital expenditure and the recent emphasis on the environment (saved time/fuel + more transit connection options).

 

[Jdot]

There would be a more direct link via the Queens Quay Stop along the 509 and 510 streetcar lines to Union.

Anyone know how that line will work when the streetcar line extends further East along Queens Quay? Will all streetcars still circle up to Union, then back down to head east along Queens Quay? In that case the streetcar loading area at Union will have to change. I know that there were plans to allow this loop to accept longer streetcars, but what changes would be made to allow Spadina to Cherry Street service?

 

[unimaginative2]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, the current GO terminal site could easily accommodate both GO and long distance services, and it would offer far superior connections to both Union Station and the subway. I have a study from a few years ago by the Motor Coach Association which examines several different sites, including the OPP land, the current GO site, the empty lot across Bay St from the ACC, and one other that I don't recall. All were deemed to be acceptable, though the GO site was a bit congested. They suggested a two-level facility with the waiting areas on top (and also allowing for more limited facilities since they could be shared with Union Station). I'll post more details when I get a chance.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

There would be a more direct link via the Queens Quay Stop along the 509 and 510 streetcar lines to Union.

Anyone know how that line will work when the streetcar line extends further East along Queens Quay? Will all streetcars still circle up to Union, then back down to head east along Queens Quay? In that case the streetcar loading area at Union will have to change. I know that there were plans to allow this loop to accept longer streetcars, but what changes would be made to allow Spadina to Cherry Street service?

all streetcars will still be serving Union Station. There are plans for a much needed expansion of the streetcar loop, which will probably come at the same time as the new streetcar lines (Harbourfront East, Waterfront LRT). The design would allow for articulated LRVs to regularly service Union Station -- right now there are some design limitations that make it difficult to achieve.

see attached image for the preliminary plan

 

[unimaginative2]

New – or renewed – bus terminal on the horizon

Existing Bay-Dundas station may be renovated or new one built near lakeshore, Giambrone says

Aug 23, 2007 04:30 AM
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter

One way or another, Toronto will be getting a new intercity bus station.

Senior Toronto Transit Commission officials say they would be delighted to see the existing station moved, but if it stays where it is in a TTC-owned building at Bay and Dundas Sts., the commission would probably modernize it.

Chair Adam Giambrone said he has no objections to a potential plan being studied by the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority to move the terminal to a site south of Union Station. In fact, "we'd be thrilled," said Giambrone, who also sits on the GTTA board.

The GTTA wants to signal an interest in 90 Harbour St. – formerly OPP headquarters – before the province sells it off to a developer.

A coach terminal near the lakeshore could support Union Station's role as a regional transportation hub, according to a report that goes before the GTTA board tomorrow. It would probably be linked to the station by a covered walkway that would guide passengers into downtown's PATH tunnel system.

Coach operators like the idea of a move because being closer to the Gardiner Expressway would cut arrival times.

The TTC has already studied the possibility of renovating the existing station. "But how much do you spend?" wonders Giambrone, given that "none of the carriers are willing to put any money into it."

The idea of moving the terminal has been kicking around since at least the mid-1990s. If the GTTA finally prompts a move, at least the TTC would be able to move forward with the Bay St. property, said TTC general secretary Vincent Rodo. The two-storey, historically designated building could be redeveloped, but probably not for TTC use, freeing up money to provide other services.

If the terminal stays, some kind of reconfiguration would be part of a modernization. Newer buses are longer than they were when the terminal was built, which means they tend to overhang their bays, Rodo said. Also, coach operators say buses are constantly being ticketed because there isn't enough room for them to park. Few passengers use the designated walkway and instead drag their bags across the street that separates the arrivals and departures areas.

The GTTA was created by Queen's Park to come up with an integrated transportation plan for the Toronto-Hamilton region by 2008.

 

[drum118]

all streetcars will still be serving Union Station. There are plans for a much needed expansion of the streetcar loop, which will probably come at the same time as the new streetcar lines (Harbourfront East, Waterfront LRT). The design would allow for articulated LRVs to regularly service Union Station -- right now there are some design limitations that make it difficult to achieve.

see attached image for the preliminary plan

This plan is good for todays need, but not 2020 needs or anything beyond that as the riderships and operations will out strip its capacity.

We will be back to where we are today.

 

[jaborandi]

The site on Bay opposite ACC holds much potential and could be easily connected to both the GO Bus Terminal and Union Station. No reason why development couldn't happen above it. Perhaps it is too practical.

 

[Observer Walt]

^ This site would be a good location for a transportation terminal, no doubt, being right beside the Gardiner, but I doubt that anyone would want to live above such a facility, thus probably ruling out a residential condo development. Offices above a bus terminal might work, subject to proper design. But in the present environment, with about 3 million square feet of office construction under way in the core, it is doubtful that another large new office building would be feasible for at least the next 2 - 3 years.

I don't remember it being mentioned here, but the site (45 Bay Street) recently was sold. The purchaser was the Caisse de depot, the big Quebec-based pension fund. I'm not aware of any development proposal coming forward yet, but it would be a big story when it does happen.

 

[rbt]

This plan is good for todays need, but not 2020 needs or anything beyond that as the riderships and operations will out strip its capacity.

We will be back to where we are today.

We don't appear to be anywhere near capacity today in the Union Station Loop, even when major events are on.

By this, I mean that arriving streetcars rarely need to wait to unload, and loading streetcars often hang around longer than necessary. In fact, I expect you could run 2 to 3 times as many streetcars as are there today.

Streetcars also rarely leave at capacity, and given a large number of riders only go three stops (Harbourfront area), a crush crowd isn't actually all that bad.


Crowds are more of an issue at the Exhibition grounds as large events tend to have everyone leaving at once. They don't arrive at Union that way.

 

[wyliepoon]

We can borrow some design concepts from the San Francisco Transbay Transit Centre competition designs. I especially like the concept of having the bus platforms elevated, leaving the ground level open for a public plaza. Greenery (such as a green roof) would be useful for sucking up the exhaust from buses.

 

[Jayomatic]

They should build a huge terminal underground with future room for a cross town subway, and close connection to the ferry docks. Think 30 years down the road and plan to make room for it. Do something like they are doing in San fran and create a beautiful public area and hide all the buses underground with tunnels connecting to lakeshore and the gardiner.

 

[samsonyuen]

That site sounds too good to be true. Building something on top of it make sense too.

 

[unimaginative2]

From the Metrolinx CEO Report:

3. Interregional Bus Terminal in the Toronto Union Station Precinct
Following the Board’s August 24, 2007 direction for a report-back on the viability of a proposed inter-regional bus terminal at 90 Harbour Street in the Toronto Union Station precinct, Metrolinx and its consultant have been in the process of identifying concepts for evaluation so that a best course of action recommendation can be made to the Board in February, 2008.
The retained consultant, along with Metrolinx staff, have been actively engaging key stakeholders including private-sector motor coach carriers, GO Transit, City of Toronto staff (including Planning, Transportation, and TTC), the Province of Ontario, Transport Canada, and Waterfront Toronto.

Opportunity for a Bus Terminal Adjacent to Toronto Union Station and Expanded Project Scope:
As the analysis of the transportation market and policy environment proceeded with respect to the Toronto Coach Terminal (Bay & Dundas) and 90 Harbour Street sites, it became evident there was an opportunity for an integrated bus terminal as part of a larger mixed-use development at the current GO Transit bus terminal site. As a result the consultant and Metrolinx staff expanded their scope of work to pursue a joint-venture concept that would involve the construction of a mixed-use office and two-level bus terminal in conjunction with Public Works Canada, and their heritage Federal Customs Building at 1 Front Street West.

The concept for 1 Front Street West currently being developed would protect and celebrate the rear façade of the heritage building with an atrium constructed above a two-level bus terminal that will improve upon GO Transit’s current accommodations and integrate private-carrier coaches on this site immediately adjacent to Union Station. The concept also includes significant office space to achieve highest and best use at the site. As the concept evolves it will integrate fully with the PATH network and Union Station.

Status:
The consultant and Metrolinx staff are currently working with architects and engineers to develop basic design concepts for both the 90 Harbour and 1 Front Street West sites which will be satisfactory from the both the perspectives of planning, policy and coach-operator stakeholders. These concepts will then be roughly costed, and the consultant’s report will analyze how Metrolinx should proceed, taking into account both a business case and transportation policy analysis.
Metrolinx staff and its consultant will be presenting a report to the Board in a February meeting with recommendations for a preferred site and concept for a bus terminal in the Union Station precinct and an appropriate course of action.

 

[ShonTron]

Good to see the GO Bus Terminal site examined once again. As well, the area below the tracks could be a great location for bus layover, temporary storage and even excess capacity when needed. Though I'm interested in how the Dominion Building will be re-purposed properly, but a good architect with a good design could do it.

And this site is across from the VIA and GO Trains and the subway.