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mpolo2

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Who is wackier - in the Red Korner, Kim-ill of North Korea vs Mahmoud "holocaust never happened" Ahmadinejad of Iran in the Green corner?

lets discuss...

...and how much extra pressure will be on the US administation (and really, everyone else) to ensure that Iran doesnt get one too?
 
Who is wackier - in the Red Korner, Kim-ill of North Korea vs Mahmoud "holocaust never happened" Ahmadinejad of Iran in the Green corner?

Allow me to add the True Wacked Bull-Goose Loonies of the Lot --The Administration that flung out the phrase "Axis of Evil", remember that?

Let's seeeee... the Axis of Evil were (in alphabetical order) Iran, Iraq and North Korea. What did we have to fear about those three countries aside from despotic regimes?

Why potential Weapons of Mass Destruction!

So fast forward and here we are with months and months of the UN wrangling, trying to stop Iran from nuclear enrichment --and what else?

With yesterday's KA-BOOOOOOM Test, the world now gets to welcome North Korea as a nuclear power!

So. As Jon Stewart observed the other day on the Daily Show...

Faced with three "Axis of Evil Weapons of Mass Destruction" choices to invade against back in March 2003, the U.S. took on the only country that wasn't even close to becoming a nuclear threat.

...and how much extra pressure will be on the US administation (and really, everyone else) to ensure that Iran doesnt get one too?

Iran will get one. DEEEfence. And I can't say that I blame them. I'm certain Iran believes that it is defending itself and its way of life against the Wackos too.

So it goes...

Signed,
The Mississauga Muse
 
NK doesn't HAVE a nuclear weapon, or even a device. The test fizzled.

Kevin
 
NK doesn't HAVE a nuclear weapon, or even a device. The test fizzled.

That is a guess.

What we know is that they said they tested a nuclear detonation. We know that the event registered locally seemed to be a smaller explosion than was expected. The rest is pretty much pundits guessing games.
 
That is a guess.

No, it's a fact. They registered ~0.5 kT whereas an initiation is expected to be on the order of 20 kT. This can and has been precisely measured.

Interestingly, it's the same yield as the first Pakistani fizzle. They may have the same design, which was ultimately flawed. The "successful" Pakistani initiations were suspiciously similar to Chinese weapons.

Kevin
 
No, it's a fact. They registered ~0.5 kT whereas an initiation is expected to be on the order of 20 kT. This can and has been precisely measured.

The only fact is what was measured -- which was the size of the explosion -- as measured by equipment in the region.

The source, or reason behind those numbers -- are all guesses.
-- It could have been a smaller nuclear explosion - i.e. reduced fissionable material -- to conserve a limited resource.
-- It could be a bluff, and no nuclear fissionable material was used
 
The only fact is what was measured -- which was the size of the explosion -- as measured by equipment in the region.

There's a lot of science behind analysing those figures.

-- It could have been a smaller nuclear explosion - i.e. reduced fissionable material -- to conserve a limited resource.

No. You need extremely advanced nuclear engineering to create very small devices. North Korea can't pull that off, and you can't just use less material.

-- It could be a bluff, and no nuclear fissionable material was used

And therefore they don't have a bomb.

Kevin
 
N Korea test - failure or fake?
By Penny Spiller
BBC News

North Korea's claim to have successfully detonated a nuclear bomb on Monday sent shock waves around the world.

But as scientists pore over the blast's data looking for important clues about the North's nuclear programme, one question remains unanswered - was the explosion in fact a failure, or even a fake?

The doubts stem from the size of the blast which seismic monitors around the world picked up in northern North Korea on Monday morning.

South Korean soldiers on patrol near the border with North Korea
North Korea's claim has raised tensions in the region

Within a few hours, Russia said it was "100% certain" a nuclear test had been carried out and measured it at between five to 15 kilotons.

But South Korea, France and the US have all measured it at less than one kiloton, far smaller than the 12.5 kiloton bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima in WWII.

If it was a smaller explosion - and South Korea estimated it at the equivalent of just 550 tons - it would be theoretically possible, though very difficult, for the North to have detonated that amount of conventional explosives underground.

More likely, scientists say, the test did not go to plan.

Most first-generation nuclear devices are between 10 and 20 kilotons because it is the easiest size to build, says James Acton, of the London-based Verification Research, Training and Information Centre (Vertic).

"Both from a technological as well as a political analysis, you would expect North Korea to build a 10-20 kiloton bomb. The fact that it is smaller than that suggests the test was not very successful," he said.

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
If this was a nuclear explosion, it would be a case of a failed explosion
Michele Alliot-Marie
French defence minister

Mr Acton said it was very difficult to tell the difference between a nuclear or a conventional explosion based on an earthquake measurement.

"At the moment, you would have to say the evidence of a nuclear test is inconclusive," he said.

France's Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie became the highest ranking government figure to express doubts about the test, speaking to French radio on Wednesday.

"Given its weakness, it is hard to say if it was an explosion with a very large amount of conventional explosive or indeed a nuclear explosion," she said.

"In any case, if this was a nuclear explosion, it would be a case of a failed explosion," she said.

Hunt continues

Given this uncertainty, governments and scientists are urgently working to find some proof, either way.

They are analysing the seismic data as well as testing for any radioactive material released by the blast and now in the atmosphere.

South Korea received a sophisticated radioactivity detector from Sweden on Wednesday to carry out further tests, officials said.

And US and Japanese monitoring planes based on the island of Okinawa are also believed to be flying in the region.

But officials have warned that the process could take time, and South Korea has warned it could be two weeks before conclusive proof is available.

Others, including one French nuclear official, have warned that Monday's nuclear test may never be confirmed.

Xavier Clement of France's Atomic Energy Commission said the seismic data had to be sifted to differentiate the blast from background noise of subterranean movement.

"It is possible that this cannot be done, given the weakness of the signals compared to the background noise," he told the French news agency AFP.

More tests?

Despite these uncertainties, China - North Korea's closest ally - has not given any indication it doubts Pyongyang's claim about the nuclear test, denouncing it in unusually strong words as "brazen".

And North Korea again on Wednesday reiterated that its scientists had "successfully conducted an underground test under secure conditions", and even threatened more tests if the US did not change its "hostile" policy.

Further North Korean tests could be an interesting indicator of the country's intentions and capabilities, the BBC's defence and security correspondent Rob Watson says.

A one-off test may be a sign it has only limited quantities of weapons-grade plutonium and has some way to go on the design of a nuclear weapon.

A second test would answer those doubts, and clear up the uncertainties still lingering from the first.
 
The big question is how can we blame this on Bush and US Foreign Policy.
 
The big question is how can we blame this on Bush and US Foreign Policy.

The argument could be made that Iran and North Korea wouldn't be as bold as they are today if they weren't provoked (axis of evil label) and the US wasn't tied up in an endless unpopular modern-day Vietnam.
 
^^
The Clinton administration managed to put some control on the uncontrolable North-Korea by having regular inspections and preventing them from enriching uranium.

The Bush adminstration lost focus of the War on Terror when they put their resources into Iraq and lost sight of Osama Bin Ladin. If the US had avoided Iraq and sent enough ground troops into Afganistan, Bin Ladin would have already been captured or killed and they'd have the resources to go into a country with real weapons of mass destruction: N. Korea.

I really look forward to a new US President in 2008. Somebody needs to begin remedying the World's view on the US which Bush has spent 6 years destroying. We need him (her) today!
 
Stupid politics....

How can we blame this on Bush? How can we blame this on Clinton?

Simple fact is that the North Koreans were determined in acquiring Nuclear Weapons technology, and were willing to do whatever necessary to do it.

Nothing short of the destruction of North Korea would have stopped them. That meant full scale invasion -- or the co-operation of China.... neither Bush nor Clinton were up to invading (not to mention -- most of the people on this board would have been yelling bloody murder). China, is for the most part been happy at some thorn in the side of the US administration -- so it is unlikely they would have helped much (mostly talk).
 
North Korea has been pursuing a nuke for a while. The fact that the device appears to have failed would fit in with the general state of that nation: a big facade hiding an otherwise desperate situation.
 
^That seems to be a pretty fair statement. Then again, caution is a virtue and who knows for certain if they do in fact have the capability. Personally, the only nuclear threat I am worried is the American threat. They have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. They are the only country to use a nuclear weapon against people. Pyongyang is far more likely to see a bomb dropped on it than any American city.
 
^ Actually, Russia still has the largest number of Nuclear missles
 

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