Can't say I'm upset with the loss of the third tower. It was crowding the Aberdeen Pavilion quite a bit. I wouldn't mind if the two remaining towers could compensate a bit. Two twin 45s would be nice. Also wouldn't have mind keeping the podium of the third tower around the corner.
 

'We're not just building the arena for one tenant': Mayor defends proposed 5,500 seat arena at Lansdowne​

Article Link on ctvnews

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe is confident a new 5,500 seat arena at Lansdowne Park will accommodate the off ice success of PWHL Ottawa in the years ahead, as questions are raised about the size of the arena for professional woman's hockey.

The $419 million Lansdowne 2.0 includes a new north-side stands for TD Place and replacing the Civic Centre with a new 5,500 seat arena and event centre, with room for 1,000 standing room spots.

A public meeting to discuss the Lansdowne 2.0 plan will be held Tuesday night at TD Place. You can learn more about the event centre site plan and provide input from 6:30 p.m. to 8 p.m.
PWHL Ottawa led the league in attendance during the inaugural season, with an average of 7,495 fans for the 12 games at TD Place.

"This arena is going to serve a multitude of purposes; we're not just building an arena for PWHL Ottawa.," Sutcliffe told TSN Mornings on TSN 1200.

"Everybody is excited about the success of PWHL Ottawa; I'm thrilled with how it's gone and the atmosphere at their games and it brings out a different crowd, but they're going to use it for 15 nights a year out of 365."

Capacity at the Arena at TD Place is approximately 8,500 for hockey.

Sutcliffe says the City of Ottawa and the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG) have been discussing the arena's plans with officials from the Professional Women's Hockey League and PWHL Ottawa.

"It's not just about the seats, it's not just about selling tickets, it's also about the experience at the games, the atmosphere, the experience for the players who are now using very, very old-fashioned, outdated facilities at the current arena," Sutcliffe said.

"There's a lot of benefits for PWHL Ottawa here even if we end up with an arena that's a few hundred seats smaller than their ideal scenario. They can make it work and they're going to have a lot of benefits that come from this arena that they're very excited about."

The new event centre at Lansdowne will also accommodate the Ottawa 67's, the Ottawa BlackJacks basketball team, concerts, shows and other sporting events in Ottawa.

"We're told the right size of the facility for those kinds of events is the 5,500 to 6,500 range and everybody will be able to adapt to that and there will be a great experience there," Sutcliffe said.

"You don't buy a dining room table for the size of the event you have on Christmas Day. You buy your dining room table for the size of your family whose going to be there eating dinner every night, not for the one or two times of year, when you're going to have a much bigger crowd."

Sutcliffe says there are several factors at play that will allow the city and OSEG to "squeeze a few more seats into the arena," including expanded common areas.

Drop in attendance?
The mayor says he hopes PWHL Ottawa's success off the ice continues to grow for season two and beyond, but wonders if attendance will continue to grow as part of Ottawa's sports landscape.

"If you look around the landscape of sports teams in Ottawa, there is not a team whose problem is we don't have enough seats – that we're selling too many tickets and we don't have enough places to put people," Sutcliffe said.

"That's not the typical experience of a professional or semi-professional sports team in Ottawa. If it ends up that PWHL Ottawa has the problem, that's a nice problem to have. I think we can squeeze in a few more seats, but it's not going to be an 8,500 seat arena."
 
There's a lot of benefits for PWHL Ottawa here even if we end up with an arena that's a few hundred seats smaller than their ideal scenario
It's not a few hundred, it's a few thousand. It seems this arena is being designed for one tenant; the 67s. The rest is an afterthought.

I'd like to see attendance stats for ALL Civic Centre events over the last 10 years and see how many actually come closer to that 8,500-10,000. An outdated facility can be updated. One that's too small can't be expanded.
 
It's not a few hundred, it's a few thousand. It seems this arena is being designed for one tenant; the 67s. The rest is an afterthought.

I'd like to see attendance stats for ALL Civic Centre events over the last 10 years and see how many actually come closer to that 8,500-10,000. An outdated facility can be updated. One that's too small can't be expanded.
In another article, he was saying "Mayor Mark Sutcliffe told The Hockey News that "the redesign of the TD arena predates the establishment of a PWHL team in Ottawa. It was initially being reworked with the OHL (the Ottawa 67s) in mind and, as such, the reduction in seating was deemed to be suitable for the average attendance of OHL games (roughly 4000 people per game)," So, when do you revisit that decision? Before or after you build.....

Article below

Local Government Responds To How Arena Plan Could Negatively Impact To PWHL Ottawa​

The City of Ottawa's mayors office, and a councillor have spoken on the ongoing plans to redevelop Lansdowne Park, including the demolish of TD Place Arena to be replaced by an arena with 3000 fewer seats, which could have a serious impact on PWHL Ottawa.
  • Ian Kennedy
  • JUN 17, 2024 11:55 AM EDT
Before PWHL Ottawa came into existence, the City of Ottawa and the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group had a plan in place to re-design Lansdowne Park. It is a plan that would involve the construction of a new 5,500 seat arena on the site, followed by the demolition of TD Place Arena, the current home of PWHL Ottawa and the OHL's Ottawa 67s.

While the Ottawa 67s averaged only 4213 fans this year, meaning they would not be impacted by the change in capacity, the move would be a significant hit to PWHL Ottawa topped all PWHL teams with a 7,496 average attendance. Seven of Ottawa's 12 regular season home games brought in more than 8,000 fans, which means Ottawa would be losing more than 2,500 fans for many games. It would be a substantial hit to the team's fan base, and potentially the viability of the franchise in the city.

When asked for comment on the impact the reduction in seating from TD Place Arena to the new planned event center at Lansdowne, a representative for Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe told The Hockey News that "the redesign of the TD arena predates the establishment of a PWHL team in Ottawa. It was initially being reworked with the OHL (the Ottawa 67s) in mind and, as such, the reduction in seating was deemed to be suitable for the average attendance of OHL games (roughly 4000 people per game)," the Mayor's office wrote to The Hockey News in an email. "With the advent of the PWHL in Ottawa, the TD arena still meets the ideal building size for a facility of this nature and use. Currently the average attendance for a PWHL game is roughly about 5400 people per game."

The email also stated plans for TD Place Arena have not yet been finalized.

The response from the Mayor's office utilizes the league attendance average of 5448 as justification rather than Ottawa's average. The PWHL's numbers were primarily driven down by attendance figures in New York where the team averaged 2,496. Removing New York's home dates pushes the league average to 6246, and if you were to remove Boston and New York, the league average would sit at 6982.

In response to a post from The Hockey News - Women's on "X" discussing the arena portion of the Lansdowne 2.0 plan, Ottawa city councillor Shawn Menard posted a comment on the situation as well.

"The existing civic centre is slated to last to 2067 and was valued at $132,000,000. Tearing it down and putting it on much loved green space with fewer seats and more expensive tickets at a cost of $419 million makes little sense," Menard wrote.

The Hockey News also emailed Menard for comment, but had not received a reply at the time of press.

While the PWHL played only 12 home games per market in 2024, those numbers will climb to 15 next season as the regular season expands to 30 games. With potential expansion to the league in the future, that schedule could again rise.

The City of Ottawa is holding a public meeting to showcase the plans on Tuesday, June 18, from 6:30 to 8pm inside Gate 2 at TD Place Arena. It's expected there will be a presence at the meeting from concerned PWHL Ottawa fans.
 
In one article, the Mayor says "'We're not just building the arena for one tenant", in the other article he says "the redesign of the TD arena predates the establishment of a PWHL team in Ottawa. It was initially being reworked with the OHL (the Ottawa 67s)". So which is it, are we building for one tenant or not?
 
Lansdowne 2.0 could cost $74M more than city estimate, auditor general finds

Ottawa's auditor general says construction costs for the Lansdowne 2.0 project could be understated by more than $74 million, potentially raising the project's price tag to just short of half a billion dollars.

In the first report from a so-called "agile audit" released Thursday, the Office of the Auditor General (OAG) warns of cost escalation due to delays and says the city hadn't included a sufficient contingency fund to cover its risks.

The report also found that the city could stand to collect far less revenue than expected over the four-decade life of its partnership with Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG), potentially cutting into money it was counting on to repay debt.

In a report to council in November, staff estimated the total cost of the redevelopment project at $419 million.

Council subsequently approved a financial model based on that number, which was meant as a rough figure that could change as the project goes to tender. Councillors will still have a chance to review an updated price tag next year.

The OAG found that the November estimate relied on solid expertise and due diligence, but was still off base. Its report hiked the projected cost of the project by 17.7 per cent to $493.4 million.

"We believe the City, in some instances, chose estimates that were on the lower end of existing ranges," the report said.

"Given the inherent risks related to construction, and this project in particular, we believe this approach has resulted in some construction estimates that are optimistic."

'Insufficient consideration of risk'

The report says the city did not follow its own guidelines for setting up a contingency fund that would allow it to cover cost overruns. In the OAG's view, the $51 million it set aside was about $44 million too low.

"The OAG believes that there was insufficient consideration of risk commensurate to this project when establishing their contingency amount," it said.

It said much the same thing for the cost of moving utilities for construction work, which could be understated by about $8 million.

Then there are the delays. The report noted the timelines for both the event centre and the north side stadium stands have been pushed back in the months since November. That adds to the risk of getting pricier bids when the project goes to tender.

"We believe that these delays have likely already impacted the reasonableness of estimated construction cost escalations," the report said. "Further delays would continue to compound the magnitude of this impact."

A separate cost estimate of $18.6 million to build a city parking garage at Lansdowne is also too low, according to the report, given that parking structure costs have jumped more than 12 per cent in one year.

Higher costs could mean more debt

The city was aiming to fund the $419-million cost from its November estimate through a combination of $310 million in debt and several other revenue sources, including by selling the rights to build two towers over the stands.

The auditor's report said the city will "most likely" have to take out more debt than expected if construction costs are indeed understated.

Moreover, the city was planning to pay back all that debt through the so-called "waterfall" of profits it's agreeing to split with OSEG. But the auditor's report pointed to several risk factors that could cut into the revenues those profits rely on.

"Should proforma projections associated with the partnership fall short, distributions from the waterfall will not be available to the City to support debt servicing," it said.

The report notes that revenue growth for the Ottawa Redblacks has already fallen short. It found that more conservative growth rates could cut into profits over the life of the partnership by tens of millions of dollars.

The operating cost side of the ledger is also a risk, and the auditor report views the city's guess as too optimistic, perhaps by $30 million over the course of the partnership.

City staff dispute cost finding​

Council made amendments to the staff plan when it considered the project in November, including by boosting the height of the towers and setting aside more money for affordable housing.

The OAG said its report did not factor in those adjustments.

City staff have accepted the auditor general's recommendation on updating the waterfall estimates, but disputed part of the findings on construction costs.

"There appears to be a fundamental disagreement with the basis of the finding as Management has indicated that they followed the Guide and incorporated risk into the determination of their estimates," the auditor general's office said.

"It is the OAG's perspective's that the Guide was not followed for the determination of the utilities allowance and the determination of overall contingency.

In a memo released Thursday following the OAG report, city staff insist that they did follow their own guidelines for estimating construction costs.

They note that the guidelines allow them to use a contingency on the lower end of the scale for projects with "greater certainty," and argue that Lansdowne is just that because it has been under the city's ownership since 1847.

"We remain confident that the original estimates that were presented to Council are appropriate and align to the guideline for developing them," said the memo from the city's interim general manager of planning, development and building services, Vivi Chi, and general manager of infrastructure and water services, Tammy Rose.

They say they are working to control risks and "deliver a final plan that fits within the range of the original budget estimates."
 
No surprise there. City Staff has a solid history of grossly underestimating the cost of projects.
 
In one article, the Mayor says "'We're not just building the arena for one tenant", in the other article he says "the redesign of the TD arena predates the establishment of a PWHL team in Ottawa. It was initially being reworked with the OHL (the Ottawa 67s)". So which is it, are we building for one tenant or not?
Definitely not the best phrasing. I do think it makes sense to build for your primary tenant, which the 67s undoubtedly are. The 67s occupy 35-40 nights a year and brought in north of 150,000 fans, vs. 12 and 89,000 for the PWHL (though the number of games may go up next year).

Also don't forget that the Blackjacks are also a tenant of the arena and 8000 seats would be way too big for them. Scarcity of tickets is the name of the game in sports now, which is why you are seeing venue sizes shrink basically across the board. The trick will be projecting PWHL long term attendance and finding a balance for all of the tenants.
 
Definitely not the best phrasing. I do think it makes sense to build for your primary tenant, which the 67s undoubtedly are and have been for 50+ years. The 67s occupy 35-40 nights a year and brought in north of 150,000 fans, vs. 12 and 89,000 for the PWHL (though the number of games may go up next year).

Also don't forget that the Blackjacks are also a tenant of the arena and 8000 seats would be way too big for them. Scarcity of tickets is the name of the game in sports now, which is why you are seeing venue sizes shrink basically across the board. The trick will be projecting PWHL long term attendance and finding a balance for all of the tenants.
 
Definitely not the best phrasing. I do think it makes sense to build for your primary tenant, which the 67s undoubtedly are. The 67s occupy 35-40 nights a year and brought in north of 150,000 fans, vs. 12 and 89,000 for the PWHL (though the number of games may go up next year).

Also don't forget that the Blackjacks are also a tenant of the arena and 8000 seats would be way too big for them. Scarcity of tickets is the name of the game in sports now, which is why you are seeing venue sizes shrink basically across the board. The trick will be projecting PWHL long term attendance and finding a balance for all of the tenants.
This is honestly a good point. It definitely makes sense when you think about it more. My biggest gripes are things that would've promote more activity than just the arena or stadium.
 
Definitely not the best phrasing. I do think it makes sense to build for your primary tenant, which the 67s undoubtedly are. The 67s occupy 35-40 nights a year and brought in north of 150,000 fans, vs. 12 and 89,000 for the PWHL (though the number of games may go up next year).

Also don't forget that the Blackjacks are also a tenant of the arena and 8000 seats would be way too big for them. Scarcity of tickets is the name of the game in sports now, which is why you are seeing venue sizes shrink basically across the board. The trick will be projecting PWHL long term attendance and finding a balance for all of the tenants.
I'd like to see a breakdown of ALL Civic Centre events along with attendance for each. I'm sure the National and International events, concerts, comedy shows, have figures closer to PWHL. There's been a lack of transparency during this process, pinning OHL against PWHL without mentioning everything else that goes on at the arena.

My biggest gripes are things that would've promote more activity than just the arena or stadium.
Same. I have my reservations about the arena plan however, losing Live Nation and RecRoom is by far more frustrating. This new plan does nothing to attract more people to the site. If anything, we may see fewer people coming down due to the smaller sports venues.

How about moving and expanding the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame, try to get the YMCA to move in, a hotel could get a few thousand more per week. The green roof, had it been made accessible to the public instead of removed, could have been something of an attraction.

The plan is uninspired and won't do much to help Lansdowne.
 
Ironically, I bet a lot of the new apartments will be occupied by the very same Glebe retirees that quashed the original plans. Elderly people love cashing out on their homes and downsizing to apartments in their own neighbourhood once they find maintenance too difficult.
 
I'd like to see a breakdown of ALL Civic Centre events along with attendance for each. I'm sure the National and International events, concerts, comedy shows, have figures closer to PWHL. There's been a lack of transparency during this process, pinning OHL against PWHL without mentioning everything else that goes on at the arena.
That would be useful information. As for big, recent examples, Volleyball Nations League peaked at 7000 for the US game, but the average for the league is under 3000. The World Curling Championships last year averaged 3100 per draw (though the playoffs were higher.) The last World Juniors essentially sold out Lansdowne, with the big caveat that the organizers made the decision to include most tickets as part of packages at the CTC, and for most games the actual attendance was much lower than the announced numbers.

I don't think there are ever official attendance figures released for concerts/comedy shows. I think some of the biggest ones like Trevor Noah probably approached 7000, but the average would be quite a bit lower. Remember that the seating capacity for those shows is lower than it is for sports, and there are a lot of terrible seats at TD place in the ends and on the corners due to the way they have to place the stage. I expect that a modern arena with 6500 seats could get pretty close to the same capacity, as it would have a more standard stage placement and more of the seats would be decent for those types of events.

Ultimately the city has to plan on the assumption that there is an end state with another 17-18,000 seat arena downtown, which would host the biggest events and really eliminate the need to have them at Lansdowne. I think that is the strongest argument for a smaller capacity at Lansdowne. You build too big and you end up with an arena that competes with the Sens for big events, and which is inappropriate for the majority of your regular tenants.
 
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Ironically, I bet a lot of the new apartments will be occupied by the very same Glebe retirees that quashed the original plans. Elderly people love cashing out on their homes and downsizing to apartments in their own neighbourhood once they find maintenance too difficult.
Honestly, these new condos and apartments (rent vs mortage) are just about as expensive as nearby single family homes, especially when you consider condo fees on purchased units.
That would be useful information. As for big, recent examples, Volleyball Nations League peaked at 7000 for the US game, but the average for the league is under 3000. The World Curling Championships last year averaged 3100 per draw (though the playoffs were higher.) The last World Juniors essentially sold out Lansdowne, with the big caveat that the organizers made the decision to include most tickets as part of packages at the CTC, and for most games the actual attendance was much lower than the announced numbers.

I don't think there are ever official attendance figures released for concerts/comedy shows. I think some of the biggest ones like Trevor Noah probably approached 7000, but the average would be quite a bit lower. Remember that the seating capacity for those shows is lower than it is for sports, and there are a lot of terrible seats at TD place in the ends and on the corners due to the way they have to place the stage. I expect that a modern arena with 6500 seats could get pretty close to the same capacity, as it would have a more standard stage placement and more of the seats would be decent for those types of events.

Ultimately the city has to plan on the assumption that there is an end state with another 17-18,000 seat arena downtown, which would host the biggest events and really eliminate the need to have them at Lansdowne. I think that is the strongest argument for a smaller capacity at Lansdowne. You build too big and you end up with an arena that competes with the Sens for big events, and which is inappropriate for the majority of your regular tenants.
See now this helps ease my hesitations, at least on the capacity end. I still think the City should have looked at renovating the Civic Centre as option B, maybe even reduce its capacity by converting the weird seats below the stadium stands into fan zones with food and beverages. Even more so, this plan should have included honest to God attractions beyond the existing sports teams.
 
See now this helps ease my hesitations, at least on the capacity end. I still think the City should have looked at renovating the Civic Centre as option B, maybe even reduce its capacity by converting the weird seats below the stadium stands into fan zones with food and beverages. Even more so, this plan should have included honest to God attractions beyond the existing sports teams.
Totally agree on the other attractions. I was very keen on the Rec Room and the music venue, though we are now getting our 2000 person venue in what is frankly a better spot.

I think that the Civic Centre is cool and unique, but it takes up too much space and if you’ve been down in the bowels, it’s pretty clear that it’s time has come. You’d never get it to modern standards for acoustics and the like without spending far more than the proposed budget. And you’d still be stuck with that less than ideal configuration for sports.
 

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