[Megaton327]

The Premier has just announced an expansion to the province's EV Rebate Program: https://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2016/02/ontario-making-electric-vehicles-more-affordable.html

The new, modernized program will:

• Increase the current incentive range for EVs from $5,000 - $8,500 to $6,000 - $10,000
• Provide an opportunity to receive an additional $3,000 incentive for vehicles with larger battery capacities
• Provide an additional $1,000 incentive for vehicles with five or more seats
• Continue to provide incentives linked to battery capacity of more than 5 kilowatt-hours
• Cap incentives for vehicles priced between $75,000 and $150,000 at $3,000
• Provide up to $1,000 for the purchase and installation of chargers for home and business use.

It is unclear if the additional $3000 for battery capacity and $1000 for 5+ seats is in addition to or included in the $10000 upper end of the range, but I think it is likely included ($6000 base for an EV, up to $9000 for a larger battery, then the max $10K achieved with a large battery and 5+ seats). It is also unclear if leases will still qualify, and how so--currently a 1-year lease is eligible for 1/3 of the rebate, a 2-year lease for 2/3, and a 3-year+ for 100% of it.

Additionally, earlier this year : https://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2015/12/more-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-on-the-way.html

Through the $20 million grant program, the province is seeking public and private sector partners to create a network of fast-charging electric vehicle stations in cities, along highways and at workplaces, apartments, condominiums and public places across Ontario.

The program details indicate that these stations will be DC fast charging stations, each having at least 1 CHAdeMO connector (Nissan Leaf, Kia Soul, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Tesla Model S/X via adapter) and 1 CCS SAE Combo connector (BMW i3, upcoming Chevrolet Bolt). For those unaware, these stations can generally charge a modern EV's battery from empty to approximately 80% in about 30 minutes. The upcoming Chevy Bolt will reportedly reach an 80% charge in one hour. In other words, depending on the vehicle, if starting from empty these stations provide anywhere from about 100-140km of range per 30 minutes.

In the EV community, there is a widespread expectation that many of these fast chargers will be built at the 400-series highway ONroute stations (there are currently "future electric vehicle charging station" rough-ins at many of these locations), which would make a lot of sense.

The first press release I linked to says "The deadline for Electric Vehicle Chargers Ontario applications is Friday, February 12, 2016", and having read the documents for it, I believe I saw March 31 2017 as the deadline to have all stations under the project be operational to the public. Hopefully construction will start soon, and some will open before that final deadline. I thought this thread might provide a good place for those interested to track progress, give updates, post pictures, etc.

Personally, I'm very happy about this--my brother is a very happy 2012 Volt owner having claimed the $8500 vehicle+$1000 charger/installation rebates at that time, and I look forward to collecting the $11000 rebate for a 2017 Chevy Bolt (and charger/install) the moment they're available in Ontario.

 

[kEiThZ]

If I understand correctly, they gave Canadian Tire a monopoly at OnRoute for car services. That might exclude subsidised chargers. It's why Tesla built their Superchargers off the 401.

I wish they'd lead a bit more on the chargers. Level 3 chargers at every OnRoute is the commitment I want to see.

More subsidies is nice but doesn't do much as our dollar tanks. The new Tesla Model 3 will be $50k in Canada. Even with the rebate, it'll be a pricey car.

The best they can do is get aggressive on Level 3 chargers. And start work on requirements for all new condos to rough in chargers at every parking spot.

 

[muller877]

The Premier has just announced an expansion to the province's EV Rebate Program: https://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2016/02/ontario-making-electric-vehicles-more-affordable.html

A EV in Canada often uses 20 kWh/100 km. On a rapid charge you also lose 20% of the energy on a rapid charge. If you include the residential rate and the delivery my last hydro bill was $0.12 / kwh + a delivery charge of what equates to $0.08/kwh (I don't know the fixed vs variable component in this $70 charge). Total of $0.20/kwh So it would cost me $4.00 to go 100 km

A small to medium sedan uses 8 l / 100 km. A litre of gas is about $0.80 at Costco. So it costs me $6.40 to go 100 km

So a bit of a savings on fuel. But based on 20,000 average km / yr it results in a savings of $480. Even if the car lasts me 10 years that's still less than $5,000 difference (and they cost more than $5,000 more than a similar car).

Emotionally it saves you more since you don't have to fill up at the pump and tap your credit card. But that's emotions...not logic. And it can save you more if you have a free plug at work (my buddy only plugs it in at work so he doesn't have to pay for his own electricity)

Now let's go to pollution.

Natural Gas fired plants produce about 450 grams of CO2 per kWh. I assume natural gas since this will be incremental demand on the Ontario power grid which is currently not available. About 7.5% of the energy is wasted on transmission and a further 5-40%...assume 20% (depending on the plug...the faster it is the more it wastes) is wasted adding it to the battery pack. So producing 20 kWh of electricity will generate 20 kWh x 480g / (1-7.5%) / (1 - 20%) = 13,000 grams of CO2 per 100 km

An electric car also takes more energy to produce (and hence more CO2 emission during production than conventional cars).

Small to medium sedans create CO2 of about 120 g of CO2 per km. 120g x 100 km = 12,000 g of CO2 per 100 km.

WHAT???? Say it isn't so. Are electric cars a scam? It's more polluting and doesn't save you that much!!!

You really have to use wind or solar to make it CO2 efficient (and that's the Sierra Club saying that)
https://content.sierraclub.org/evguide/myths-vs-reality

Why are we giving away $10,000 to someone to feel smug about themselves when there is no/low CO2 savings?

 

[Megaton327]

A EV in Canada often uses 20 kWh/100 km. On a rapid charge you also lose 20% of the energy on a rapid charge. If you include the residential rate and the delivery my last hydro bill was $0.12 / kwh + a delivery charge of what equates to $0.08/kwh (I don't know the fixed vs variable component in this $70 charge). Total of $0.20/kwh So it would cost me $4.00 to go 100 km

A small to medium sedan uses 8 l / 100 km. A litre of gas is about $0.80 at Costco. So it costs me $6.40 to go 100 km

So a bit of a savings on fuel. But based on 20,000 average km / yr it results in a savings of $480. Even if the car lasts me 10 years that's still less than $5,000 difference (and they cost more than $5,000 more than a similar car).

Emotionally it saves you more since you don't have to fill up at the pump and tap your credit card. But that's emotions...not logic. And it can save you more if you have a free plug at work (my buddy only plugs it in at work so he doesn't have to pay for his own electricity)

Now let's go to pollution.

Natural Gas fired plants produce about 450 grams of CO2 per kWh. I assume natural gas since this will be incremental demand on the Ontario power grid which is currently not available. About 7.5% of the energy is wasted on transmission and a further 5-40%...assume 20% (depending on the plug...the faster it is the more it wastes) is wasted adding it to the battery pack. So producing 20 kWh of electricity will generate 20 kWh x 480g / (1-7.5%) / (1 - 20%) = 13,000 grams of CO2 per 100 km

An electric car also takes more energy to produce (and hence more CO2 emission during production than conventional cars).

Small to medium sedans create CO2 of about 120 g of CO2 per km. 120g x 100 km = 12,000 g of CO2 per 100 km.

WHAT???? Say it isn't so. Are electric cars a scam? It's more polluting and doesn't save you that much!!!

You really have to use wind or solar to make it CO2 efficient (and that's the Sierra Club saying that)
https://content.sierraclub.org/evguide/myths-vs-reality

Why are we giving away $10,000 to someone to feel smug about themselves when there is no/low CO2 savings?

Have fun with your fantasy world, there.

 

[mdrejhon]

Not going to comment on carbon lifecycle of Oil vs EV left out of this convo.
And I will semi-agree I think Ontario has some priorities (transit, debt).
But, there is a nonzero likelihood my next car might be EV (unless I return to carshare) once I get too many breakdowns in a what will be a decade-and-a-half old car.

But...pointing out the big whoppers.

Here goes.

Daytime charging versus low gas prices is not fair.

In my case, over 90 percent of my EV charging will be at night because I drive less than 100 kilometres per day, 350 days per year. Only on 15 days a year I drive more than 100km. Assuming I do shallow battery cycling because of the short distance daily, such EV packs are now able to last at least a decade.

Nighttime baseload in Ontario comes from nuclear, a low carbon source, albeit controversial.
Sierra Club says plenty of power at nighttime that no new plants need to be built for users like me.

And gas prices will probably not stay below a dollar a litre for the while lifetime of car ownership.

 

[kEiThZ]

Honestly though, I'd rather see $10k going towards a rebate on solar, which is still an expensive commitment with MicroFit. At the end of the day cars take up roadspace. EVs don't do a thing for traffic congestion. Which is a bigger problem for this city. We don't need to encourage more driving. Even if that driving is greener.

And EVs are already attractive these days. Low fuel cost. Low maintenance. No having to visit the gas station.

 

[gweed123]

Honestly though, I'd rather see $10k going towards a rebate on solar, which is still an expensive commitment with MicroFit. At the end of the day cars take up roadspace. EVs don't do a thing for traffic congestion. Which is a bigger problem for this city. We don't need to encourage more driving. Even if that driving is greener.

And EVs are already attractive these days. Low fuel cost. Low maintenance. No having to visit the gas station.

I'm fine with subsidizing them until they reach a critical mass, in terms of production and availability of charging stations. Once it reaches that point, manufacturing costs should come down, and the "there are so many more gas stations than EV stations" shouldn't be an issue. After that, the subsidy can be moved to the generation end of the pipeline (personal solar).

 

[kEiThZ]

@mdrejhon

Electricity prices are almost $0.19/kWh at night! People forget to add in all the ancillaries like delivery charges. So muller877 is right. It could cost you up to $5 per 100 km in Ontario. Especially in the winter and/or with traffic. The avearge over the year is probably closer to $4 / 100km.

@muller877

You're ignoring a lot of costs. 25000km of driving per year. EV fuel: $1000. Gas fuel: $1500. But then the gas car needs an oil change every 10 000km @ $40 each (so about $100 per year). And maintenance costs for everything from brakes to filters is higher on a gas vehicle (easily another $100-$200). So at least $700 per year more. To probably closer to $800 on average. Given that the average lease is closer to 5 years these days. That $4000-$5000 price difference is break even.

But then I'm not counting value from time saved filling gas. Or the lower insurance rates for EVs. Or the much higher resale values for EVs. An EV is no-brainer even without government incentives these days.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm fine with subsidizing them until they reach a critical mass, in terms of production and availability of charging stations. Once it reaches that point, manufacturing costs should come down, and the "there are so many more gas stations than EV stations" shouldn't be an issue. After that, the subsidy can be moved to the generation end of the pipeline (personal solar).

What's critical mass though? If we're providing subsidies till even 10% penetration, imagine how many billions that will add up to. You don't think we'd be better off using that money for transit for example? There's opportunity costs here.

And I really doubt that the rebate is all that effective in selling a few more EVs. Early adopters will do so, regardless of rebates. I'm thinking of buying a Tesla Model 3 in 2018 when my hybrid is paid off. I'd have done so regardless of this rebate.

The biggest role the province could play is on legislation and enforcement. For example. "Ice'ing" is a significant concern among EV owners. It's where gasoline burners park their cars in EV charging spots or even EV owner who aren't charging park there. Cops don't really bother with tickets (it's also often on private property). Or try talking to your condo board about getting a charging point installed at your parking spot. I did. Super difficult. Government legislation could help there. Lastly, their whole fiasco with Canadian Tire and OnRoutes. Most Tesla owners will tell you how mad they are that the government dropped the ball on Level 3 chargers there. All these things would do just as much, if not more than a higher rebate.

 

[junior43]

@mdrejhon

Electricity prices are almost $0.19/kWh at night! People forget to add in all the ancillaries like delivery charges. So muller877 is right. It could cost you up to $5 per 100 km in Ontario. Especially in the winter and/or with traffic. The avearge over the year is probably closer to $4 / 100km.

@muller877

You're ignoring a lot of costs. 25000km of driving per year. EV fuel: $1000. Gas fuel: $1500. But then the gas car needs an oil change every 10 000km @ $40 each (so about $100 per year). And maintenance costs for everything from brakes to filters is higher on a gas vehicle (easily another $100-$200). So at least $700 per year more. To probably closer to $800 on average. Given that the average lease is closer to 5 years these days. That $4000-$5000 price difference is break even.

But then I'm not counting value from time saved filling gas. Or the lower insurance rates for EVs. Or the much higher resale values for EVs. An EV is no-brainer even without government incentives these days.

What about battery replacement? I've heard that after 8-10 years, you need to replace the batteries and it costs 8-10 thousand to do this? < Not sure if this is true though?

 

[TOareaFan]

Included in the revised program is a limit on the amount of rebate you get if you buy a car over, I think, $75k. I think now it is limited to $3k!

Ah, Canada....where you can be deemed too rich to get a child care benefit but you can never be too rich to get help buying one of these!

 

[Duck]

What about battery replacement? I've heard that after 8-10 years, you need to replace the batteries and it costs 8-10 thousand to do this? < Not sure if this is true though?

It's not.

It's about as true as "I heard you have to replace your engine in a gas car every 8-10 years."

 

[TOareaFan]

The post has some thoughts on this.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...-another-unpopular-program-with-more-spending

 

[mdrejhon]

What about battery replacement? I've heard that after 8-10 years, you need to replace the batteries and it costs 8-10 thousand to do this? < Not sure if this is true though?

This is correct but you can make a battery last longer or shorter depending on kilometres driven, and how deep cycled the battery is.

Many lithium batteries go from under 1000 full charges to well over 10,000 full charges if you only shallow cycle them (e.g. Recharge back to 60 percent every time you hit 40 percent). More total lifetime kilowatt hours of battery viability can be milked that way. My numbers are a little off from being exact, but you get the idea,

So you might just get 5 years or 15 years, depending on all the metrics.

I have 15 year old lithium laptop batteries that seems to still work almost it's original lifetime, because they have been stored at 50 percent charge, and only deep cycled occasionally to prevent the rare faint memory effect. Likewise, I have dead lithium batteries less than two years old...

Longevity is different from Nicads and NiMH recommendations where the habit is to fully cycle them due to their more-intense memory effect behaviors (especially NiCd)

 

[junior43]

This is correct but you can make a battery last longer or shorter depending on kilometres driven, and how deep cycled the battery is.

Many lithium batteries go from under 1000 full charges to well over 10,000 full charges if you only shallow cycle them (e.g. Recharge back to 60 percent every time you hit 40 percent). More total lifetime kilowatt hours of battery viability can be milked that way. My numbers are a little off from being exact, but you get the idea,

So you might just get 5 years or 15 years, depending on all the metrics.

I have 15 year old lithium laptop batteries that seems to still work almost it's original lifetime, because they have been stored at 50 percent charge, and only deep cycled occasionally to prevent the rare faint memory effect. Likewise, I have dead lithium batteries less than two years old...

Longevity is different from Nicads and NiMH recommendations where the habit is to fully cycle them due to their more-intense memory effect behaviors (especially NiCd)

Thanks for this. Curious - does the car have software to show the history of your charging? I'm thinking in the context of resale value when buying a used car - obviously as you noted, a 5 yr old car could last another 2-10 years on it's batteries, but unless you know how the owner treated/managed the batteries, how would you have confidence in purchasing that vehicle.

Also, is 8K-10K the correct price range when replacing batteries?