[Northern Light]

Thought I'd start a new design thread where we look at examples of great streetscapes, extant or proposed from around the world that might be feasible on a street in Toronto.

While threads have their own lives, I'm aiming to solicit practical yet ambitious designs.

So I would prefer people not post Las Rambla from Barcelona, as we really have no comparable space, nor are we likely to.

I want examples we can genuinely advocate to BIAs, to the City, etc with some reasonable hope of achieving them.

On that note...........

I came across a proposal to improve the Munroe Street (Greektown) streetscape in Detroit.

The State of Michigan just appropriated 20M USD for the purpose.

To that end, first, a look at the way it is now: (per streetview)

Not exactly horrific is it? Not enough trees and the pavement is rough...........but very chamring buildings and the hydro is buried.............

But 20M will buy them this version:

A single lane of traffic, a 100% interlocking brick road and sidewalk system, rolled curbs,l and 2 rows of trees. Pretty damned nice, I think.

How about a 2-lane version for Toronto's Greektown? One lane each way, but the street parking gone in favour of wide sidewalks with patios. Just a thought.

Image above sourced from this link: https://detroit.urbanize.city/post/major-detroit-developments-nab-funding-new-state-budget

 

[just east of the creek]

Marcus Gee posted an article in the Globe and Mail entitled “
Europe’s urban advantage leaves Canada in the shade”. It’s an opinion piece again. Although comparing Toronto to any other city is never an apples to apples comparison, there are certainly questions that can be asked, and we often ask them on this site. As for the premise of the article, it has been one I have shared from time to time since I first started going to Europe quite a few years ago. You can find the scruffier corners of European cities, and some can be quite(!) scruffy (Marseille for instance, Naples, cities in former Communist countries), but if you are equating Toronto to a world class city, then your comparisons lie elsewhere. And we often seem to be on the shorter end of the stick.

As quoted below:

“



Every time I come home from a trip to Europe, I feel a little ashamed. Ashamed and perplexed. Why is everything so much better over there? The parks, the public transit, the highways, the squares, the museums – even the garbage bins are better than ours.
Arriving in Toronto, where I live, feels like crossing into the East Bloc from the West during the Cold War. Everything looks so shabby. The main route into downtown from the airport is in scandalous shape. Rusting guardrails. Garbage and weeds on the shoulders. Potholes and bumps. The inbound drive along the Gardiner Expressway is like a ride on a decrepit roller coaster.
And this, remember, is the gateway to Canada’s biggest, richest city. What kind of first impression does this leave with visitors? Why can’t we manage a simple task like routine maintenance of a major thoroughfare?


The highways of Spain, which I visited last month, are vastly better designed, engineered and maintained. A system of standard European signage makes it nearly impossible to get lost. Cat’s eyes and other reflective markers on even smaller roads make them much safer at night than our poorly marked roadways. Carefully trimmed greenery decorates the medians and the shoulders. When we were there, the oleander shrubs were just starting to bloom.
The public transit in European cities is on a whole other level than ours. Though Madrid is around the same size as Toronto, its Metro network is at least four times as big, with 15 lines and more than 300 stations. It is clean, fast and easy to navigate. It connects to a comprehensive system of light-rail, commuter rail, high-speed rail and buses (many of them fully electric). Construction of new subway lines is famously fast and, by North American standards, cheap.
Even smaller cities like Porto, in Portugal, have modern, efficient systems. Porto’s is in the midst of a big expansion, with construction cranes sprouting all over.
The parks, too, are incomparably better. Toronto has an extensive park system, much of it lovely, but nothing like Madrid’s magnificent Retiro, the 350-acre gem with its rose garden, artificial lake and rows of blooming chestnut trees. The jewel of Toronto, High Park, is positively scruffy by comparison. So is the heavily used but poorly tended Trinity Bellwoods downtown.


The efficiency experts at the Toronto parks department have seen fit to install rolling plastic garbage bins in the parks like the kind homeowners put on their curbs. Easier to empty, I’m sure, but frightful to look at. Imagine the groundskeepers at the Retiro putting up with something like that. Unthinkable.
Toronto is in the process of replacing the trash bins on its streets because the old ones tended to fall apart and overflow. How is it we can’t even get garbage pails right?
There is really no excuse for failures like this. Canada is a wealthy country. It has higher incomes than either Spain or Portugal, and a level of taxation that provides governments with plenty of capacity to build and maintain the public realm in our cities.
The historic legacy of grand old cities such as Madrid give them an advantage, yes. The Retiro was a royal park before the monarchy gave it over to the masses. But Toronto is no scrub. It has a rich history. It has a well-heeled elite. It has a robust city government with an ample budget. Its mayors are elected by the populace at large, imbuing them with considerable authority to lead.


Yet somehow it feels as if no one is in charge. We stumble along year after year, missing big chances to up our game and watching things unravel. Toronto’s transit system is undergoing its own belated, multi-billion-dollar expansion, yet we can’t even get a notoriously delayed part of it, the Eglinton Crosstown line, up and running.
The revitalization of the waterfront is proceeding nicely, yet it lacks the big idea – a harbour pier, a signature park, a major public market – that would pull it all together. Our two most important museums, the Art Gallery of Ontario and the Royal Ontario Museum, have undergone a series of piecemeal renovations over the decades, leaving each a bit of a dog’s breakfast.
A self-respecting city with serious leadership would not have let this happen. Looking at European cities should make us not just ashamed and perplexed but angry.”

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Marcus Gee posted an article in the Globe and Mail entitled “
Europe’s urban advantage leaves Canada in the shade”. It’s an opinion piece again. Although comparing Toronto to any other city is never an apples to apples comparison, there are certainly questions that can be asked, and we often ask them on this site. As for the premise of the article, it has been one I have shared from time to time since I first started going to Europe quite a few years ago. You can find the scruffier corners of European cities, and some can be quite(!) scruffy (Marseille for instance, Naples, cities in former Communist countries), but if you are equating Toronto to a world class city, then your comparisons lie elsewhere. And we often seem to be on the shorter end of the stick.

As quoted below:

“



Every time I come home from a trip to Europe, I feel a little ashamed. Ashamed and perplexed. Why is everything so much better over there? The parks, the public transit, the highways, the squares, the museums – even the garbage bins are better than ours.
Arriving in Toronto, where I live, feels like crossing into the East Bloc from the West during the Cold War. Everything looks so shabby. The main route into downtown from the airport is in scandalous shape. Rusting guardrails. Garbage and weeds on the shoulders. Potholes and bumps. The inbound drive along the Gardiner Expressway is like a ride on a decrepit roller coaster.
And this, remember, is the gateway to Canada’s biggest, richest city. What kind of first impression does this leave with visitors? Why can’t we manage a simple task like routine maintenance of a major thoroughfare?


The highways of Spain, which I visited last month, are vastly better designed, engineered and maintained. A system of standard European signage makes it nearly impossible to get lost. Cat’s eyes and other reflective markers on even smaller roads make them much safer at night than our poorly marked roadways. Carefully trimmed greenery decorates the medians and the shoulders. When we were there, the oleander shrubs were just starting to bloom.
The public transit in European cities is on a whole other level than ours. Though Madrid is around the same size as Toronto, its Metro network is at least four times as big, with 15 lines and more than 300 stations. It is clean, fast and easy to navigate. It connects to a comprehensive system of light-rail, commuter rail, high-speed rail and buses (many of them fully electric). Construction of new subway lines is famously fast and, by North American standards, cheap.
Even smaller cities like Porto, in Portugal, have modern, efficient systems. Porto’s is in the midst of a big expansion, with construction cranes sprouting all over.
The parks, too, are incomparably better. Toronto has an extensive park system, much of it lovely, but nothing like Madrid’s magnificent Retiro, the 350-acre gem with its rose garden, artificial lake and rows of blooming chestnut trees. The jewel of Toronto, High Park, is positively scruffy by comparison. So is the heavily used but poorly tended Trinity Bellwoods downtown.


The efficiency experts at the Toronto parks department have seen fit to install rolling plastic garbage bins in the parks like the kind homeowners put on their curbs. Easier to empty, I’m sure, but frightful to look at. Imagine the groundskeepers at the Retiro putting up with something like that. Unthinkable.
Toronto is in the process of replacing the trash bins on its streets because the old ones tended to fall apart and overflow. How is it we can’t even get garbage pails right?
There is really no excuse for failures like this. Canada is a wealthy country. It has higher incomes than either Spain or Portugal, and a level of taxation that provides governments with plenty of capacity to build and maintain the public realm in our cities.
The historic legacy of grand old cities such as Madrid give them an advantage, yes. The Retiro was a royal park before the monarchy gave it over to the masses. But Toronto is no scrub. It has a rich history. It has a well-heeled elite. It has a robust city government with an ample budget. Its mayors are elected by the populace at large, imbuing them with considerable authority to lead.


Yet somehow it feels as if no one is in charge. We stumble along year after year, missing big chances to up our game and watching things unravel. Toronto’s transit system is undergoing its own belated, multi-billion-dollar expansion, yet we can’t even get a notoriously delayed part of it, the Eglinton Crosstown line, up and running.
The revitalization of the waterfront is proceeding nicely, yet it lacks the big idea – a harbour pier, a signature park, a major public market – that would pull it all together. Our two most important museums, the Art Gallery of Ontario and the Royal Ontario Museum, have undergone a series of piecemeal renovations over the decades, leaving each a bit of a dog’s breakfast.
A self-respecting city with serious leadership would not have let this happen. Looking at European cities should make us not just ashamed and perplexed but angry.”

The author is talking about a phenomenon that exists in all North American cities, not just Toronto in particular.

Compare London to NYC for example. One city is just cleaner, has better public spaces, better maintained public transport and roads.

I don't know the root of the issue, but I do know that there is an extremely persistent cultural barrier to the production of high-quality public resources and amentities within North America.

As for Toronto I think that the current generation of civic leaders will be the last to reluctantly admit they govern a large metropolis. This has been a long and drawn out cultural change that began with the white-collar exodus from Montreal in the Quiet Revolution and I think we are now living at the tail-end of it.

 

[junctionist]

I'm glad that Marcus didn't compare Toronto with Eastern Europe today. The major cities you find in Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Baltic states generally seem to be doing better than Toronto with regard to the public realm. Public transit is ample and modernized, the roads are in great shape, the public realm is meticulously maintained, old towns are preserved and beautiful, the cultural institutions are well invested in and thriving, and the streets are safe.

That's all achieved for a fraction of our GDP. Europeans seem to run their cities as a matter of national pride and identity. Here, outside of Quebec, it seems that running a city is something done with reluctance and little or no ambition. Compare the public realm of in front of Ontario's legislature to that in front of Quebec's legislature.

Take something even as seemingly simple as traffic lights. London, Montreal, and Washington DC have, for decades, used these great looking low-mounted units with black frames in historic areas where views and aesthetics are paramount. Here, our city officials (and their superiors in the provincial government who decide what traffic lights are to be used) are fine with marring one of our most iconic vistas with an array of utilitarian traffic lights hung prominently over the road.

 

[old boy]

I'm glad that Marcus didn't compare Toronto with Eastern Europe today. The major cities you find in Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Baltic states generally seem to be doing better than Toronto with regard to the public realm. Public transit is ample and modernized, the roads are in great shape, the public realm is meticulously maintained, old towns are preserved and beautiful, the cultural institutions are well invested in and thriving, and the streets are safe.

That's all achieved for a fraction of our GDP. Europeans seem to run their cities as a matter of national pride and identity. Here, outside of Quebec, it seems that running a city is something done with reluctance and little or no ambition. Compare the public realm of in front of Ontario's legislature to that in front of Quebec's legislature.

Take something even as seemingly simple as traffic lights. London, Montreal, and Washington DC have, for decades, used these great looking low-mounted units with black frames in historic areas where views and aesthetics are paramount. Here, our city officials (and their superiors in the provincial government who decide what traffic lights are to be used) are fine with marring one of our most iconic vistas with an array of utilitarian traffic lights hung prominently over the road.

Toronto is enduring an extended growth spurt. Who knows what the gangly city will be when it grows up. Reports of it's demise are premature.

 

[just east of the creek]

I'm glad that Marcus didn't compare Toronto with Eastern Europe today. The major cities you find in Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Baltic states generally seem to be doing better than Toronto with regard to the public realm. Public transit is ample and modernized, the roads are in great shape, the public realm is meticulously maintained, old towns are preserved and beautiful, the cultural institutions are well invested in and thriving, and the streets are safe.

That's all achieved for a fraction of our GDP. Europeans seem to run their cities as a matter of national pride and identity. Here, outside of Quebec, it seems that running a city is something done with reluctance and little or no ambition. Compare the public realm of in front of Ontario's legislature to that in front of Quebec's legislature.

Take something even as seemingly simple as traffic lights. London, Montreal, and Washington DC have, for decades, used these great looking low-mounted units with black frames in historic areas where views and aesthetics are paramount. Here, our city officials (and their superiors in the provincial government who decide what traffic lights are to be used) are fine with marring one of our most iconic vistas with an array of utilitarian traffic lights hung prominently over the road.

Having been to Poland, I would completely agree with you, in regards to the country on a whole, for the most part. But compare with Dresden (for instance), which remains a city with challenges. In any industrialized city you can and will find areas that leave something to be desired, and there are parts of the Ukraine, for instance, and pre Putins Imperial Ambitions, that are pretty dark.

The other thing I run into is the generalizations of my feelings about the places I have travelled. Europe is a yes, almost without reservation. Russia, even before that most recent version of VP, outside of St. Petersburg, not a chance anymore, and could be quite challenging in the good old days, Korea and Japan are wonderful in a very organized and precise way, China - really too many negatives, and there are more than a few starting with pollution. Singapore is a yes to a certain extent. Hong Kong was a yes, but is now lumped in with China and mostly a no.

When coming in from Europe my feelings are that I am coming from a wonderful green land with a weathered look and wonderful food and landing in this dusty brown Wild West where everything is scaled and built for the car and someone wants to take you to Montana’s for a meal.

When flying in from China, it was the opposite. Time to go home was greeted with pleasure as opposed to regret.

UT forums touch repeatedly on values that are all about the Public Realm and our challenges with it. Yes, I could argue that the city streets in Montreal are in far worse condition then Toronto (yes) and they have a greater addiction to a spray can (yes), but not as great an addiction as Greece does, and the roads are far better then Russia for instance.

But I think we should set the bar higher, and why cannot we achieve that? Are we settling for a institutional inadequacy that perhaps the TTC is now a lightening rod for, and finding that there are no politicians with the strength or desire to fundamentally change the leadership and ‘culture’ of that organization? (We could be talking of the Leafs as well!). Anyways, I have gone on far too long, but am off to Europe on business next week, and looking forward to it.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Toronto is enduring an extended growth spurt. Who knows what the gangly city will be when it grows up. Reports of it's demise are premature.

Yes. We are still a city that was primarily industrial until the 1970s. We don't have the long history of being a global metropolis and market hub like Paris, Amsterdam, NYC, London, or even when compared Montreal.

Once you view the administrative culture of Toronto as essentially midwestern, pragmatic, and industrial (think Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago) a lot of things start to make sense. As I said before, it feels like that culture is nearly dead in Toronto but it will keep kicking on its way out the door.

 

[Natika33]

Yes. We are still a city that was primarily industrial until the 1970s. We don't have the long history of being a global metropolis and market hub like Paris, Amsterdam, NYC, London, or even when compared Montreal.

Once you view the administrative culture of Toronto as essentially midwestern, pragmatic, and industrial (think Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago) a lot of things start to make sense. As I said before, it feels like that culture is nearly dead in Toronto but it will keep kicking on its way out the door.

Not a long history perhaps, but I'm noticing many positive changes over even just 20-30 years. As one small example, I remember when the Black Bull Tavern was virtually the only patio & now we have many (even before CafeTO). I feel the powers-that-be support culture, the arts & all things not strictly utilitarian more than they used to. So we just need to keep demanding the sorts of changes we want to see - both from bureaucrats & from the private sector. Let's provide examples here as Northern Light intended. You never know who's watching.

 

[Natika33]

Here's one that I think we could manage on Bloor Street (the Mink Mile) with just a bit of tweaking (narrowing the area for cars, adding interesting paving to the sidewalk, adding more trees & different types of lighting, better garbage control, etc). Screenshot of a video taken somewhere in Tokyo from Instagram.

 

[Natika33]

And not a streetscape per se, but I thought this OCAD grad's ideas for adding rest areas & bridges throughout the Don Valley was brilliant and maybe some could be adapted to within the city. I particularly like the one that looks like two lilypads tilting towards each other with a hollow in between to allow rain water to fall through & back into the river below, yet the people on either side can sit, relax, & stay dry while listening to the rain fall on the roof and/or watch it fall.Framing the Don - Royce Wong

 

[Northern Light]

Here's one that I think we could manage on Bloor Street (the Mink Mile) with just a bit of tweaking (narrowing the area for cars, adding interesting paving to the sidewalk, adding more trees & different types of lighting, better garbage control, etc).

Bloor is a curious example. There are some tweaks I'd make there.....but, the sidewalks are 100% granite already and pretty nice. The lighting of the trees isn't quite that elaborate in winter, on Bloor, done with a skeletal structure.

Actual cords of lighting on trees aren't great for them.

****

On Bloor, aside from the curb to curb space for cars, my big change would be the high-mast streetlights which I think are ugly and utilitarian, we could do so much better. My understanding is that Toronto Hydro is an obstacle to upgrading these.

In terms of the space for cars, I think that will diminish when Bloor gets reconstructed and the cycle tracks are made permanent. Work on Bloor through the Mink Mile is currently planned for 2027.

I would suggest emailing the BIA to ask what they may be pursuing, if anything.

 

[Natika33]

Bloor is a curious example. There are some tweaks I'd make there.....but, the sidewalks are 100% granite already and pretty nice. The lighting of the trees isn't quite that elaborate in winter, on Bloor, done with a skeletal structure.

Actual cords of lighting on trees aren't great for them.

****

On Bloor, aside from the curb to curb space for cars, my big change would be the high-mast streetlights which I think are ugly and utilitarian, we could do so much better. My understanding is that Toronto Hydro is an obstacle to upgrading these.

In terms of the space for cars, I think that will diminish when Bloor gets reconstructed and the cycle tracks are made permanent. Work on Bloor through the Mink Mile is currently planned for 2027.

I would suggest emailing the BIA to ask what they may be pursuing, if anything.

Thanks! To clarify, I didn't mean the corded light part as that was seasonal anyway. I chose to start with Bloor because it's pretty nice already, so just needs some small tweaks. Didn't realize the sidewalks here are granite though! Yeah, no need to change that.

 

[Northern Light]

I chose to start with Bloor because it's pretty nice already, so just needs some small tweaks. Didn't realize the sidewalks here are granite though! Yeah, no need to change that.

Those were some seriously expensive sidewalks! (inclusive of the trees/planter beds); something like ~22M........and that was quite a few years ago now.

My best memory is that both Bay St. and Avenue Road are destined for the same granite from Bloor to north of Yorkville.

Yonge north of Cumberland is not getting that treatment, but will from Bloor to Charles, I believe, I think Bay is already upgraded for that same stretch on the Manulife side, but not the west side, yet.

 

[Natika33]

Those were some seriously expensive sidewalks! (inclusive of the trees/planter beds); something like ~22M........and that was quite a few years ago now.

My best memory is that both Bay St. and Avenue Road are destined for the same granite from Bloor to north of Yorkville.

Yonge north of Cumberland is not getting that treatment, but will from Bloor to Charles, I believe, I think Bay is already upgraded for that same stretch on the Manulife side, but not the west side, yet.

Nice! Will they add more granite if they widen the sidewalks too? Perhaps I accidentally found them a cheaper solution I do like the round illuminated planters that are already there. I hope we get more as they expand along the areas you mentioned.

 

[MisterF]

That's all achieved for a fraction of our GDP. Europeans seem to run their cities as a matter of national pride and identity. Here, outside of Quebec, it seems that running a city is something done with reluctance and little or no ambition. Compare the public realm of in front of Ontario's legislature to that in front of Quebec's legislature.

I went by the legislature the other day and the public realm in the front and back of the building really is appalling. An expanse of cracked asphalt filled with cars and delivery trucks, temporary fencing, and haphazardly placed temporary planters acting as barriers, all surrounded by a moat of car traffic. In Quebec, OTOH, they have unit pavers, fountains, and attractive fencing and landscaping with virtually no surface parking or asphalt. What a huge contrast.

Toronto is enduring an extended growth spurt. Who knows what the gangly city will be when it grows up. Reports of it's demise are premature.

There's no reason that a fast growing city/province can't take aesthetics seriously. Take the legislature again as an example - all the new construction has no impact whatsoever on the landscaping around that building.