Tulse said:
Ice isn't near the water's edge. And the Gardiner and rail tracks are real impediments for pedestrians to get to the lake.
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They are psychological impediments at best. It's not as if pedestrians have to crawl across the actual train tracks, hoping not to get hit by a train. There are also traffic lights at Lakeshore, where pedestrians may cross safely. It is only in the minds of the pedestrians that it is any more difficult to walk to the waterfront then it is to Nathan Philips Square.

So I suggest the city start to wage psychological warfare and dispel that thinking, with some clever advertising campaign.
 
Traynor said:
They are psychological impediments at best. It's not as if pedestrians have to crawl across the actual train tracks, hoping not to get hit by a train. There are also traffic lights at Lakeshore, where pedestrians may cross safely. It is only in the minds of the pedestrians that it is any more difficult to walk to the waterfront then it is to Nathan Philips Square.

So I suggest the city start to wage psychological warfare and dispel that thinking, with some clever advertising campaign.
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Haha, I see Traynor standing at Lakeshore waiting for lights to change while cars whiz by him going 70, with his eyes firmly shut saying 'it's all in my mind, it's all in my mind' for 5min waiting for the lights to change. Then walking under the tracks with the stench of diesel, gas, and pigeon shit doing the same. 'It's all in my mind, it's just a psychological impediment, it's all in my mind...' haha.
...oh did I mention it's February?
 
^LMAO

20 years ago, I was a bike courier for many years, so a little snow, diesel smoke and pigeon poop are very low on my list of impediments. These days I realize I am not made of sugar either and I won't melt if it rains. People these days are a bunch of sucks. It comes from parents driving their kids everywhere.

When I was a kid I had to walk five miles to school, through 3 feet of snow... UPHILL... BOTH WAYS!

LOL
 
spaced said:
Haha, I see Traynor standing at Lakeshore waiting for lights to change while cars whiz by him going 70, with his eyes firmly shut saying 'it's all in my mind, it's all in my mind' for 5min waiting for the lights to change. Then walking under the tracks with the stench of diesel, gas, and pigeon shit doing the same. 'It's all in my mind, it's just a psychological impediment, it's all in my mind...' haha.
...oh did I mention it's February?
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Oh come on, it's not even nearly that bad. It's much worse crossing around Sherbourne or Jarvis, even so, it's still not as unpleasant as you describe. In places like the Yonge Street crossing, it has improved a lot.
 
junctionist said:
The Gardiner and rail ttracks are not the issue. The issue is that these high-rise buildings take up so much room by the water's edge that there's very little public space and access along the most central stretch of waterfront. I'm not saying high-rises couldn't work but these quintessential mistakes by the lake don't deserve to be seen in a positive light. (Keep in mind, I don't have an issue with the Toronto Star building, which is north of Queen's Quay and not by the water's edge.) Unless people are going to the islands, one might assume that there is no waterfront to be enjoyed there. The 70s facades along Queen's Quay look very sterile, too.

Harbourfront Centre was built when there was still plenty of industry remaining along the waterfront, and the difference in approaches to development is night and day. Private residences, businesses, lots of public space and cultural programming. It was the real pioneer. Today's Sugar Beach and tomorrow's East Bayfront will thankfully have more in common with it than Harbour Square.
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When they close off the southern portion of Queens Quay there will be plenty of public space available. That will easily transform the central waterfront along with the boardwalk they want to build. Besides, whether we like it or not, the condos on the waterfront are here to stay. The key moving forward is how to we make sure that the street-levels are lively. Those renders posted on the prior page appear to have a bit of a "towers in a park" look... I'm hoping it's just poor rendering, but if those buildings meet the ground as they appear in that render then we're in trouble.
 
No one is even considering the obvious solution to a better waterfront. Just like in the past...Landfill. Create a whole new waterfront south of Queen's Quay. The much maligned 70's concrete condos would fade into the background and you could have a pedestrian friendly lakefront.

Why is such an undertaking beyond us these days? I'm sure some savvy developer would pay for the whole operation in order to reap the value of all that new land.
 
I was wondering that myself. The waterfront was moved south a good half a kilometre in the late 19th to early 20th centuries. Surely we can do as much today? The main impediment has to be legal rather than technological. Were the owners of the waterfront condos told, in legally binding language by the City itself, that there would never be landfill south of their buildings? Otherwise why not go for it?
 
Mongo said:
I was wondering that myself. The waterfront was moved south a good half a kilometre in the late 19th to early 20th centuries. Surely we can do as much today? The main impediment has to be legal rather than technological. Were the owners of the waterfront condos told, in legally binding language by the City itself, that there would never be landfill south of their buildings? Otherwise why not go for it?
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Why bother wasting money to do this when Waterfront Toronto has a perfectly good plan to work with what is there? Same with the Gardiner: make it easier to cross as a pedestrian (try crossing Lake Shore at Spadina on the west side), improve lighting, add some decorative touches (maybe easy-to-clean tiled murals on the underside of the expressway?), bring the city up to both of its sides and voila! Gardiner is not a barrier, and remains an awesome way to view the city when driving in. Working with what we have will produce results that are surprising, cost-effective and distinctively Toronto. Throwing up our hands and starting anew every ten years is the quickest way to failure.
 
I think the differences in labour laws and minimum wage are what make such massive civil engineering projects more difficult to do today. I'd imagine the costs would be quite high, and only justifiable if the developers could build on the infill (thus negating the whole purpose of more public waterfront land).
 
egotrippin said:
I think the differences in labour laws and minimum wage are what make such massive civil engineering projects more difficult to do today. I'd imagine the costs would be quite high, and only justifiable if the developers could build on the infill (thus negating the whole purpose of more public waterfront land).
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Actually, we've never stopped infilling the lake. Recent fruits of this labour include the Leslie Street Spit, which is probably destined to evolve into a normal waterfront park. It was created over many decades, but a concerted effort could be made to redirect construction waste and some natural materials towards the central waterfront. Perhaps the demolition at least a part of the Gardiner could one day be a good opportunity.
 
I think the harbour is already filled in enough as it is. I wouldn't want it to extend any further towards the islands. I don't think the fact that the water's edge was once back at Front Street is a good reason to keep going lake-ward. Quite the opposite. I'm more of the mind to improve what we've got.
The finishing and polishing of the West8 waterfront plans and the immense amount of work to be done in the Portlands are already huge propositions for this city, but good ones - especially compared to some of the mistakes done in the past. We've already got more land down there than we can soon work with.
 
Traynor said:
No one is even considering the obvious solution to a better waterfront. Just like in the past...Landfill. Create a whole new waterfront south of Queen's Quay. The much maligned 70's concrete condos would fade into the background and you could have a pedestrian friendly lakefront.

Why is such an undertaking beyond us these days? I'm sure some savvy developer would pay for the whole operation in order to reap the value of all that new land.
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Considering that the only waterfront buildings that could be considered a barrier are on the Harbour Square block, what would be the point?
 
junctionist said:
Actually, we've never stopped infilling the lake. Recent fruits of this labour include the Leslie Street Spit, which is probably destined to evolve into a normal waterfront park. It was created over many decades, but a concerted effort could be made to redirect construction waste and some natural materials towards the central waterfront. Perhaps the demolition at least a part of the Gardiner could one day be a good opportunity.
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I meant land suitable to be built on though. The Leslie Street Spit has made for a surprising, and pleasant, park, but wouldn't be able to hold any significant structures. I'm no civil engineer, but I imagine the amount of work required to create stable, water-free ground would be a lot more difficult and expensive.
 
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