Turner Fleischer will be a lot cheaper. Vinoy's buildings have a tendency to fall apart so this isn't a bad thing. (not that this is ever being built as proposed)
 
Northern Light said:
As a side note, does Madison actually have any residential rental in their portfoliio?
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Yes. They've recently completed a purpose-built rental in NY. I'm not aware of any in Toronto.

www.iconmanhattan.com

Icon Apartments

Apartment interiors at icon are uncommonly luxurious. Floor-to-ceiling windows, hardwood floors, washer / dryer, integrated climate control, modern kitchen appliances, deluxe baths and outdoor space are all standard in these Midtown West luxury rental apartments.
www.iconmanhattan.com www.iconmanhattan.com
 
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Key words …”Red Aluminum” ~that’s why they are or will be, whenever, “iconic” in midtown.
Downtown c’d use a big splash of red aluminum downtown. The gorgeous Scotia Plaza has been desperately lonely for decades.
 
telefann said:
Canadian tall-poppy syndrome epitomized. Cutting down excellence, rather than championing it, has been part and parcel of our cultural DNA since time immemorial.
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LOL. Why don’t you look at what developers (like Madison) have proposed - and what they’ve actually built before going around accusing people of tall poppy syndrome?
 
allengeorge said:
LOL. Why don’t you look at what developers (like Madison) have proposed - and what they’ve actually built before going around accusing people of tall poppy syndrome?
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Need I mention Daniels, Canderel, Concord, et al. (and YC, City of the Arts, Nobu, et al.) to prove the point that a good share of Toronto's developers exhibit hardly a modicum of civic pride as they erect one cheap spandrel heap after another in the centre of the largest city of a G20 nation? Not to mention the countless instances of cheapening/VE'ing/"Toronto-izing" initially first-rate residential proposals in the name of "fitting in"?
 
telefann said:
Need I mention Daniels, Canderel, Concord, et al. to prove the point that a good share of Toronto's developers exhibit hardly a modicum of civic pride as they erect one cheap spandrel heap after another in the centre of the largest city of a G20 nation?
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People are skeptical of this project not because of tall poppy syndrome, but because of Madison’s own track record.
 
allengeorge said:
People are skeptical of this project not because of tall poppy syndrome, but because of Madison’s own track record.
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Right, but it can't be denied that the behaviour of developers, consumers, policymakers, etc. is really just a reflection of ourselves and what our collective metropolitan/national culture upholds or fails to uphold.
 
allengeorge said:
LOL. Why don’t you look at what developers (like Madison) have proposed - and what they’ve actually built before going around accusing people of tall poppy syndrome?
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Cynics aplenty on this longtime site. For good reasons …mostly. But people, things, buildings & cities can and do change.
 
telefann said:
Right, but it can't be denied that the behaviour of developers, consumers, policymakers, etc. is really just a reflection of ourselves and what our collective metropolitan/national culture upholds or fails to uphold.
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Sure. But I don’t think that behavior is driven by tall poppy syndrome. No one is cutting down excellence. (EDIT: though I am sympathetic to this argument; I do see it from time to time in the papers, most recently about The One)

My observation is that in general Canadians are conservative; so far we don’t value big bets in businesses or in investments. We do it from time to time, but it’s not really in our national psyche.

That’s not tall poppy syndrome - it’s cultural risk aversion. We’d rather take the sure thing that delivers a known return than making a big play.
 
On the above series of exchanges, I have to line up with @telefann ; I completely understand @allengeorge 's take as well.......

But there's the thing.........change will never happen if you don't expect it and demand it.

There is certainly reason to suspect that the proposal may be VE'd.......and nothing wrong w/ a modicum of realism.

But if you discount that it WILL be VE'd; as opposed to MAY be VE'd, you're moviing to solidify that it WILL be VE'd w/o consequence.

There needs to be an element here of cheer-leading that gives Madison reason to pursue its own ambitious offer; with a healthy 'If this is BS, there will be a price to pay" (legally, of course).

Expect a bad result and you will likely get one.
 
FFS, alright kids: TFAI provides a service. If you want the result to look a certain way, you will get that product. If you want the result to look a different way, you will get that product.

Vinoly is great, sure, but the shining light (and it should shine precise and bright) will be on Madison.
 
Northern Light said:
But if you discount that it WILL be VE'd; as opposed to MAY be VE'd, you're moviing to solidify that it WILL be VE'd w/o consequence.

There needs to be an element here of cheer-leading that gives Madison reason to pursue its own ambitious offer; with a healthy 'If this is BS, there will be a price to pay" (legally, of course).
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I love the design that Madison paid Vinoly to put together. That said, I’m unaware of anything the city can do to enforce that it will be built as designed. And that’s the problem: we can demand all we want, but if we can’t enforce the demands - what’s the point?

I’m also surprised at the claim in RenX that this project - which has to command a premium over the work that Daniels, Concord and all do - will be “shovels in the ground” next year in this cost and buying market.

These are grounds for serious skepticism.

That aside, I agree with the sentiment that cultural change is incremental, and that we should remain open-minded about attempts to change.
 
allengeorge said:
Sure. But I don’t think that behavior is driven by tall poppy syndrome. No one is cutting down excellence. (EDIT: though I am sympathetic to this argument; I do see it from time to time in the papers, most recently about The One)

My observation is that in general Canadians are conservative; so far we don’t value big bets in businesses or in investments. We do it from time to time, but it’s not really in our national psyche.

That’s not tall poppy syndrome - it’s cultural risk aversion. We’d rather take the sure thing that delivers a known return than making a big
Click to expand...

Northern Light said:
On the above series of exchanges, I have to line up with @telefann ; I completely understand @allengeorge 's take as well.......

But there's the thing.........change will never happen if you don't expect it and demand it.

There is certainly reason to suspect that the proposal may be VE'd.......and nothing wrong w/ a modicum of realism.

But if you discount that it WILL be VE'd; as opposed to MAY be VE'd, you're moviing to solidify that it WILL be VE'd w/o consequence.

There needs to be an element here of cheer-leading that gives Madison reason to pursue its own ambitious offer; with a healthy 'If this is BS, there will be a price to pay" (legally, of course).

Expect a bad result and you will likely get one.
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Who’s not demanding change? It’s everywhere now. The pressure is there now, that I’ve noticed, from mayors, councillors, architects etc .. Just willful spite, cheapness & negligence if developers & the powers that be don’t turn that corner & move the needle.
 
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