Expropriation of Houses in Toronto happens pretty regularly around transit developments...

We may need a portion of your property and we may need your entire property are vastly different things. Also again this is for a transit project which I can understand since this is extremely rare. In this case I’m still confused why the existing land simply can’t get a taller building on it.
 
In this case I’m still confused why the existing land simply can’t get a taller building on it.
...mostly because it is a highly-constrained site "as is", and Metrolinx / TTC failed to "think ahead" and expropriate those houses back in 2010 when it would have been much cheaper.

Taller building will have more people, more arrivals & departures from the Lobby, etc - which all requires more public space in and around the base of the building.

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...mostly because it is a highly-constrained site "as is", and Metrolinx / TTC failed to "think ahead" and expropriate those houses back in 2010 when it would have been much cheaper.

Taller building will have more people, more arrivals & departures from the Lobby, etc - which all requires more public space in and around the base of the building.

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They have a 50 floor building proposed for a 40 foot lot at Yonge and eglinton.

It sure feels more like if we can take that land damn it we’re going to. Then we need this land.

I lived in this area at one point. There’s a man which would be in this land assembly which has recently extended his house to twice its original size. Good luck with the land assembly. You’ll need some good lawyers.
 
I lived in this area at one point. There’s a man which would be in this land assembly which has recently extended his house to twice its original size. Good luck with the land assembly. You’ll need some good lawyers.
The Government has both "good lawyers" and "deep pockets" - that said, I do not think there's going to be much political support for this (obviously) smarter solution from local Councillors Colle & Matlow -- or local PC MPP Robin Martin, who used to be the pro-bono Lawyer for most of the local NIMBY groups in her pre-MPP years...


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I reread the whole thread. So I’m up to speed and don’t sound too barbaric. Can I ask why the city doesn’t just use the parking lot to south west of the Allen between the decrepit gas station and the small businesses. All of the affordable housing doesn’t need to go in one space and admittedly the city itself or metrolinx however you want to blame it messed up the ttc entrance and the site. I also don’t understand how if this was such a priority then why didn’t the city save the land to the south east of this where the Chinese restaurant was which now is luxury condominiums. Or to the west of this at Marlee where the pizza pizza is and now is another condominium. Or how about the police station which was or is set to merge with another station to free up land for development. We obviously need affordable housing. At the same time I don’t like the damn it we screwed up here, here and here so let’s make up for everything with this one project. Sorry to sound so barbaric. But I am the man from UP.
 
I reread the whole thread. So I’m up to speed and don’t sound too barbaric. Can I ask why the city doesn’t just use the parking lot to south west of the Allen between the decrepit gas station and the small businesses. All of the affordable housing doesn’t need to go in one space and admittedly the city itself or metrolinx however you want to blame it messed up the ttc entrance and the site. I also don’t understand how if this was such a priority then why didn’t the city save the land to the south east of this where the Chinese restaurant was which now is luxury condominiums. Or to the west of this at Marlee where the pizza pizza is and now is another condominium. Or how about the police station which was or is set to merge with another station to free up land for development. We obviously need affordable housing. At the same time I don’t like the damn it we screwed up here, here and here so let’s make up for everything with this one project. Sorry to sound so barbaric. But I am the man from UP.
Ohhh, yeah 100% -- we totally want that Eglinton & Allen small Police Station in the future... Our volunteers are already working on HOUSING NOW plans for other 1970's Police Station sites in Toronto...

To answer you broader question about - "Why not where XYZ condo is now being built nearby?" - private developers pay more & move faster than the City... so City Hall can almost never 'outbid' someone for Private land near Transit.

The constraints around creating new Affordable Rental housing - are not always just physical-site constraints, often there are political, policy & bureaucratic problems too.

That said, we don't have a time-machine to go back and make everyone smarter in 2010 --- so we have to make the "highest and best use" of the opportunities that are actually on-the-table today. Play the cards we have been dealt "as is" in 2023, etc.
 
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Ohhh, yeah 100% -- we totally want that Eglinton & Allen small Police Station in the future... Our volunteers are already working on HOUSING NOW plans for other 1970's Police Station sites in Toronto...

To answer you broader question about - "Why not where XYZ condo is now being built nearby?" - private developers pay more & move faster than the City... so City Hall can almost never 'outbid' someone for Private land near Transit.

The constraints around creating new Affordable Rental housing - are not always just physical-site constraints, often their are political, policy & bureaucratic problems too.

That said, we don't have a time-machine to go back and make everyone smarter in 2010 --- so we have to make the "highest and best use" of the opportunities that are actually on-the-table today. Play the cards we have been dealt "as is" in 2023, etc.
I guess my problem is that it seems like the city didn’t get its duck in a row and now wants to reverse engineer their way to new land by removing some tax payers. I just can’t get behind that.

This is no different than selling the rich view land for development when we were in the middle of transit expansion. Only in the end to spend billions more to bury the line.

The Chinese restaurant was on green p parking land. Are you telling me the city couldn’t have snatched that up before a private developer?

How about the Lawrence heights redevelopment. Why not just add more floors to each of those sites?

If your argument is that the city makes mistakes over and over then my question would be why in the world then should it have the authority to expropriate land.
 
why in the world then should it have the authority to expropriate land.

This is one of the most genuinely weird arguments I have ever heard in all my years on UT.

I don't know why you hate expropriation as a tool, but it's used in every province and even every U.S. State (and the rest of the world); the U.S. calls it "eminent domain".

It's an ordinary concept, is legally and morally fair, it's near universal in its use; your objection to it is just not something I can understand.
 
This is one of the most genuinely weird arguments I have ever heard in all my years on UT.

I don't know why you hate expropriation as a tool, but it's used in every province and even every U.S. State (and the rest of the world); the U.S. calls it "eminent domain".

It's an ordinary concept, is legally and morally fair, it's near universal in its use; your objection to it is just not something I can understand.
you keep on ignoring all my questions and simply state that this is normal. If you're going to dismiss all my questions of why not here, or there so casually because you believe the city has the right to do anything it wants then I guess wer'e going to agree to disagree.

Again I am not against affordable housing (for years I lived directly beside one) but there was a green p spot just east of here and there is a green p spot just west of here and another green p directly at Dufferin and Eglinton, so I don't know how this one plot of land has become the only place that we can build and everybody damn it better be on board with it.

Finally I went to Beth Shalom for years to the TTC meetings about the Eglinton LRT. My NIMBY neighbours were against the project because they all drive and are so old that the project would likely never be finished while they were still alive. I used to go home to my wife and say these people are crazy... We need transit, we need bike lanes, so screw them. Awwwww but I never thought that because of said transit some of them would be forced to move out of their houses and if they didnt want to be painted as monsters who didnt understand what rights the city has.
 
you keep on ignoring all my questions and simply state that this is normal. If you're going to dismiss all my questions of why not here, or there so casually because you believe the city has the right to do anything it wants then I guess wer'e going to agree to disagree.

Again I am not against affordable housing (for years I lived directly beside one) but there was a green p spot just east of here and there is a green p spot just west of here and another green p directly at Dufferin and Eglinton, so I don't know how this one plot of land has become the only place that we can build and everybody damn it better be on board with it.

This is not the only place we can build.

It is also not the only place we are building, or will build.

However, there is a pressing need, and what we have built and even are planning to build is wholly inadequate to the problem.

It's not as if we need another 500 units or 5000 units of housing.

If one addressed only those who are literally homeless (shelter users and those in encampments/on-the-street) it's somewhere in the range of 12-13,000 people; who will require in the range of 10,000 units of housing.

But this is not 10,000 units total, because we are financing those units by building market units alongside them. In general, we're needing at least 5x the of affordable units to get that number built, it might arguably be as high as 10x.

That's 50,000 - 100,000 units.

That's all while ignoring those who are either under-housed (those who are living 2 families to a 1bdrm apartment, or those who are sleeping on someone's couch, or those staying in abusive relationships, as well as those whose income is severely strained by paying the rent such that they can't afford food (use a food bank) or a hair cut or internet etc.

That's another 80,000+ people who require another 35,000 units of housing, which means building another 165,000-330,000 units.

Think about how staggering that number is.........

This is not about let's build this one building here or these 3 or those 5.

If you assumed only 250 units per building (not a small building) ; that's 1,520 new buildings.

The idea of 'wasting' this site by choosing either to build less housing and less affordable housing on it, or driving up the cost of that housing through a cantilever is choice between the frying pan and the fire. Neither good, nor acceptable.

These homes will be assembled for a private development anyway at some point, they are within an MTSA area, and owners will sell, both because it's lucrative to do so, and because the alternative is a giant tower beside their backyard leaving them in perpetual shadow.

Simply put, this is about achieving the highest and best use of a strategic piece of public land, for a pressing public purpose.
 
...there was a green p spot just east of here and there is a green p spot just west of here and another green p directly at Dufferin and Eglinton, so I don't know how this one plot of land has become the only place that we can build and everybody damn it better be on board with it.

I don't think anywhere in this discussion we have said (or implied) that - "this one plot of land has become the only place that we can build"... We literally have student teams and volunteers currently working on some of the other sites that you have mentioned, like the GREEN-P at Dufferin & Eglinton as I type this...


The City needs to exploit every opportunity that it can achieve on lands that are already owned by the City near transit - or that are adjacent to City-owned lands which can be expropriated.
 
I don't think anywhere in this discussion we have said (or implied) that - "this one plot of land has become the only place that we can build"... We literally have student teams and volunteers currently working on some of the other sites that you have mentioned, like the GREEN-P at Dufferin & Eglinton as I type this...


The City needs to exploit every opportunity that it can achieve on lands that are already owned by the City near transit - or that are adjacent to City-owned lands which can be expropriated.
Why does the city even need to look for lands beside city owned land. If the city can buy anything then why not just look anywhere.
 
This is not the only place we can build.

It is also not the only place we are building, or will build.

However, there is a pressing need, and what we have built and even are planning to build is wholly inadequate to the problem.

It's not as if we need another 500 units or 5000 units of housing.

If one addressed only those who are literally homeless (shelter users and those in encampments/on-the-street) it's somewhere in the range of 12-13,000 people; who will require in the range of 10,000 units of housing.

But this is not 10,000 units total, because we are financing those units by building market units alongside them. In general, we're needing at least 5x the of affordable units to get that number built, it might arguably be as high as 10x.

That's 50,000 - 100,000 units.

That's all while ignoring those who are either under-housed (those who are living 2 families to a 1bdrm apartment, or those who are sleeping on someone's couch, or those staying in abusive relationships, as well as those whose income is severely strained by paying the rent such that they can't afford food (use a food bank) or a hair cut or internet etc.

That's another 80,000+ people who require another 35,000 units of housing, which means building another 165,000-330,000 units.

Think about how staggering that number is.........

This is not about let's build this one building here or these 3 or those 5.

If you assumed only 250 units per building (not a small building) ; that's 1,520 new buildings.

The idea of 'wasting' this site by choosing either to build less housing and less affordable housing on it, or driving up the cost of that housing through a cantilever is choice between the frying pan and the fire. Neither good, nor acceptable.

These homes will be assembled for a private development anyway at some point, they are within an MTSA area, and owners will sell, both because it's lucrative to do so, and because the alternative is a giant tower beside their backyard leaving them in perpetual shadow.

Simply put, this is about achieving the highest and best use of a strategic piece of public land, for a pressing public purpose.
Everyone in this city is aware of the housing shortage and the crazy supply and demand game going on.

I don’t agree that these lands will eventually be land assembled into something greater. I guess eventually could be 100 years from now so technically you could be right. But there’s countless properties directly beside subways and green p lots that don’t get expropriated and or sold to developers. Between Jane and keele are all sorts of houses next to three subway stations that have yet to be land assembled. Sure some are. Not all. There’s houses right beside rosedale station. There’s houses in yorkville beside St. George, bay and Yonge station. Not every house is set for the bulldozer. Some sure. Not all. We can name all sorts of places along various transit lines which haven’t been redeveloped.
 
Why does the city even need to look for lands beside city owned land. If the city can buy anything then why not just look anywhere.
The City can expropriate "ANYTHING" in theory --- but via the expropriation method they still need to pay "Fair-Market Value" for it to the current owners... and money is a finite-resource at City Hall.


City would get more "bang for their buck" by growing an existing parcel -vs- buying a site they have no existing physical-connection to.

I understand your "shock" at the idea of expropriating 'single family homes' at the 1250 Eglinton West site --- because 'single family homes' have been treated as 'sacred and (mostly) untouchable' in Toronto - since the 1970's.

However, it is not the 1970's any more - and the City will need to break many of its own established rules to solve the problems of the 2020's... this site is one example of that 'old-way -vs- way-forward' challenge.
 
The City can expropriate "ANYTHING" in theory --- but via the expropriation method they still need to pay "Fair-Market Value" for it to the current owners... and money is a finite-resource at City Hall.


City would get more "bang for their buck" by growing an existing parcel -vs- buying a site they have no existing physical-connection to.

I understand your "shock" at the idea of expropriating 'single family homes' at the 1250 Eglinton West site --- because 'single family homes' have been treated as 'sacred and (mostly) untouchable' in Toronto - since the 1970's.

However, it is not the 1970's any more - and the City will need to break many of its own established rules to solve the problems of the 2020's... this site is one example of that 'old-way -vs- way-forward' challenge.
Those houses are 1920s but I understand your point even if I don’t fully agree with it. I’m still confused why Lawrence heights just north of here couldn’t have seen more density. Why not expropriate old city hall and build a 100 floors affordable housing. Really do it right. The people won’t even need transit. They will be able to walk everywhere. On eglinton avenue there must be three or four affordable housing buildings within the 10 floor range. Why not expropriate them and build 30 floors. I can’t win this argument. I just come across as someone trying to look out for the rich. And no one likes that. But I don’t agree this is the only solution.
 

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