[interchange42]

This area will definitely be redesignated as a Mixed Use Area, which will allow for employment.

I'd like to see an office tower here, it would definitely be appropriate from a city-building and master-planning a complete community perspective, but just like whenever we discuss office construction outside of the core, I wonder if the market would work for an office at this location?

Just speaking personally, but HBS is pretty inaccessible from Midtown. I would have trouble commuting to work here via the TTC. Recently, I visited one of the consulates in the area, and the 1-way trip from home was 1.5 hours (albeit with mid-day service frequency).

It will be difficult to get an office tower here of any substantial size given the rate you'd get in the area won't justify the cost. You're probably looking at $20-25 net given the lack of transit. Spectrum Square trades at $24 and it's a similar situation, though it's building on existing employment / office, rather than introducing it new. Maybe something about that size could work but it's part of a much larger complex (133,000sf of 1.3m sf total) so maybe not...

Understand that future commutes here via GO will be a fraction of the time that it takes to get here from downtown now, plus if you have a significant commercial component to the development here (while employ Allies & Morrison unless you're going to be introducing just a bunch of residential, you don't need them for that), then TTC services into the site can be increased in frequency too.

42

 

[Northern Light]

Understand that future commutes here via GO will be a fraction of the time that it takes to get here from downtown now, plus if you have a significant commercial component to the development here (while employ Allies & Morrison unless you're going to be introducing just a bunch of residential, you don't need them for that), then TTC services into the site can be increased in frequency too.
42

Let's bare in mind that the TTC will be putting the tracks in this section of Lake Shore in an exclusive ROW and moving the loop to Park Lawn as long proposed.

That will bring the Humber loop service level a bit further west.

Further West Waterfront LRT, albeit it further off, particularly for phase 2, west of Dufferin Gate, is also planned to serve this area.

That plus the GO improvements will be quite substantial.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Let's bare in mind that the TTC will be putting the tracks in this section of Lake Shore in an exclusive ROW and moving the loop to Park Lawn as long proposed.

That will bring the Humber loop service level a bit further west.

Further West Waterfront LRT, albeit it further off, particularly for phase 2, west of Dufferin Gate, is also planned to serve this area.

That plus the GO improvements will be quite substantial.

Except that the automobile gods' political disciples will do their best worst to sabotage it by deferring it, say it costs too much, or give it the lowest priority.

 

[moon2n]

Without ideal access to this area, any local services are welcome (schools, community center, daycare. library, retails, GO station), commercial dream (office building, big name groceries) better away.

 

[Keyz]

May 5th, 2019. Lake Mondelez.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Better results when cooking the Kraft Bakery Redevelopment in the microwave. Not much when baking it in the sun since 2012.

 

[interchange42]

Just posted on Councillor Grimes' website:

City Council Accepts Mr. Christie's Settlement​

Today, I am writing to share some important news on the potential future of our community. The owners of the former Mr. Christie's site recently submitted a settlement offer for their property at Park Lawn and Lake Shore. Previously, City Council decided to retain these lands as "Employment Areas". In order to avert a contested hearing at the Local Planning Appeal tribunal (formerly known as the OMB), the owner is prepared to settle with the City. The settlement is supported by city staff and was accepted today by City Council, and now must be approved by LPAT. The goals and key principles that the proposed settlement seeks to achieve are:​

1. Better transit access to the area​

• The proposed settlement enables discussions with Metrolinx, TTC, City staff and the owner to further pursue new and improved transit connections into the area. This is in keeping with my November 2017 motion, which advised Metrolinx that a new Park Lawn GO Station is a priority for the City and for the community, and sought to identify potential contributions for a new station from private partners: https://bit.ly/2Au3Vki. Additionally, this is consistent with my motion to protect Humber Bay Shores by ensuring that any new residential development applications in this area do not proceed in the absence of planned soft and hard infrastructure required to support the new residential population: https://bit.ly/2LdGxfo. I have long said that the planning of this site must take a "transit-first" approach, which is what is set out here.

2. Over 3,500 jobs on the site​

• The proposed settlement will secure the space to accommodate over 3,500 jobs across the site, a majority of which will be for office type uses and others will include retail and other services. In 2011, the site had just over 400 jobs. By exponentially increasing the number of jobs on this site, we can provide opportunities for thousands of residents to work closer to home, and ensure that our community continues to be the best place to live, work, and play.

3. No residential until a detailed Secondary Plan is in place​

• The settlement proposes that no residential permission be granted until a major planning study is completed in consultation with the community. The outcomes of this study will be a detailed Secondary Plan that will outline where and how much residential (and other uses, including open spaces and new parks) will be developed on the site, over time.

4. Addressing existing traffic congestion​

• The settlement proposed that a detailed study of the existing traffic congestion will be required and understanding of what measures are required on the site to help divert traffic away from the Park Lawn and Lake Shore intersection. I have moved a motion to ensure that if the settlement is accepted, the City's Transportation Master Plan for the area is integrated with the Secondary Plan process.

5. Adding needed community services, including affordable housing​

• The settlement proposes that the identification of necessary community services that should be located on the site, including the need for affordable housing, daycares, and other uses be identified.

​

In 2013, City Council requested the Chief Planner and General Manager of Economic Development to host a series of working group meetings. The outcomes of this previous process are summarized here. To build on the work of the previous working group, I convened a new working group earlier this spring to help guide discussions on the needs of the community in relation to the future of this site. This working group consisted of a cross-section of community organizations, neighbourhood associations, and local stakeholders to help guide City Planning in assessing the needs of our community. I am confident that the feedback provided by these groups helped to reach the key principles outlined in this settlement, which will provide a strong foundation to secure necessary community resources and services that will be detailed later through the Secondary Plan process.​

This proposed settlement fits with my motions identifying significant infrastructure needs that must be met before any new residential development occurs. The settlement has been accepted by City Council and must now be approved by the Local Planning Appeal Tribunal. Once accepted, we still have a lot of work ahead of us, but this is a very positive start to the process. There will be extensive community consultation throughout this process to help ensure that the needs of the community continue to be heard loud and clear.​

This was a tough decision, but after conferring with City Legal and Planning staff, I believe that this is the best way forward given the recently announced changes to the planning process by the Provincial Government. When it comes to provincial tribunals, like the former OMB, this community has lost out on numerous occasions. The development along the west side of Park Lawn Road was never a part of the City's or my plans for the area; we fought against these developments and as we can see today, we lost that battle. I do not want to see our community lose out on the significant victories that the property owner has agreed to, and this proposed settlement provides us with a positive way forward where we can meet the needs of the current and future residents of this community.​

​

​

+ + +​

​

3,500 jobs is huge for this site, so expect big everything to make that work. Office, retail, transit hub, market & affordable residential… and I'll bet there are more community facilities coming than just daycare.

42

 

[Amare]

I'm very impressed with First Capital and their willingess to actively listen to the city as well as the immediate neighborhood. This sounds like another positive step for these lands and i'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses over the coming months.

Like was stated above, 3500 jobs for South Etobicoke is absolutely massive.

 

[Full Metal Junkie]

So I'm just doing some back-of-the-napkin guesstimates here. 3,500 office jobs would require ~550,000 sq.ft. of office space. For comparison, 16 York is 870,000. So, they can technically get away with building just a single small-ish office tower. Or just spread the office space across upper floors of podiums, above retail. Take away some space for the road networks, a transit hub, probably a school and a community centre. You are still left with plenty of space to build a juicy forest of condo towers.

This is a win-win-win for everyone, including First Capital. Well, except all the NIMBYs, there is never a win for them.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It says it includes retail jobs as well, so subtract a bunch of those jobs from the count.

 

[Full Metal Junkie]

I was being generous and didn't take any retail jobs in consideration. Regardless, it isn't much gross floor space even if you allocate the entire 3,500 to offices.

 

[Northern Light]

Just posted on Councillor Grimes' website:

City Council Accepts Mr. Christie's Settlement​

Today, I am writing to share some important news on the potential future of our community. The owners of the former Mr. Christie's site recently submitted a settlement offer for their property at Park Lawn and Lake Shore. Previously, City Council decided to retain these lands as "Employment Areas". In order to avert a contested hearing at the Local Planning Appeal tribunal (formerly known as the OMB), the owner is prepared to settle with the City. The settlement is supported by city staff and was accepted today by City Council, and now must be approved by LPAT. The goals and key principles that the proposed settlement seeks to achieve are:​

1. Better transit access to the area​

• The proposed settlement enables discussions with Metrolinx, TTC, City staff and the owner to further pursue new and improved transit connections into the area. This is in keeping with my November 2017 motion, which advised Metrolinx that a new Park Lawn GO Station is a priority for the City and for the community, and sought to identify potential contributions for a new station from private partners: https://bit.ly/2Au3Vki. Additionally, this is consistent with my motion to protect Humber Bay Shores by ensuring that any new residential development applications in this area do not proceed in the absence of planned soft and hard infrastructure required to support the new residential population: https://bit.ly/2LdGxfo. I have long said that the planning of this site must take a "transit-first" approach, which is what is set out here.

2. Over 3,500 jobs on the site​

• The proposed settlement will secure the space to accommodate over 3,500 jobs across the site, a majority of which will be for office type uses and others will include retail and other services. In 2011, the site had just over 400 jobs. By exponentially increasing the number of jobs on this site, we can provide opportunities for thousands of residents to work closer to home, and ensure that our community continues to be the best place to live, work, and play.

3. No residential until a detailed Secondary Plan is in place​

• The settlement proposes that no residential permission be granted until a major planning study is completed in consultation with the community. The outcomes of this study will be a detailed Secondary Plan that will outline where and how much residential (and other uses, including open spaces and new parks) will be developed on the site, over time.

4. Addressing existing traffic congestion​

• The settlement proposed that a detailed study of the existing traffic congestion will be required and understanding of what measures are required on the site to help divert traffic away from the Park Lawn and Lake Shore intersection. I have moved a motion to ensure that if the settlement is accepted, the City's Transportation Master Plan for the area is integrated with the Secondary Plan process.

5. Adding needed community services, including affordable housing​

• The settlement proposes that the identification of necessary community services that should be located on the site, including the need for affordable housing, daycares, and other uses be identified.

​

In 2013, City Council requested the Chief Planner and General Manager of Economic Development to host a series of working group meetings. The outcomes of this previous process are summarized here. To build on the work of the previous working group, I convened a new working group earlier this spring to help guide discussions on the needs of the community in relation to the future of this site. This working group consisted of a cross-section of community organizations, neighbourhood associations, and local stakeholders to help guide City Planning in assessing the needs of our community. I am confident that the feedback provided by these groups helped to reach the key principles outlined in this settlement, which will provide a strong foundation to secure necessary community resources and services that will be detailed later through the Secondary Plan process.​

This proposed settlement fits with my motions identifying significant infrastructure needs that must be met before any new residential development occurs. The settlement has been accepted by City Council and must now be approved by the Local Planning Appeal Tribunal. Once accepted, we still have a lot of work ahead of us, but this is a very positive start to the process. There will be extensive community consultation throughout this process to help ensure that the needs of the community continue to be heard loud and clear.​

This was a tough decision, but after conferring with City Legal and Planning staff, I believe that this is the best way forward given the recently announced changes to the planning process by the Provincial Government. When it comes to provincial tribunals, like the former OMB, this community has lost out on numerous occasions. The development along the west side of Park Lawn Road was never a part of the City's or my plans for the area; we fought against these developments and as we can see today, we lost that battle. I do not want to see our community lose out on the significant victories that the property owner has agreed to, and this proposed settlement provides us with a positive way forward where we can meet the needs of the current and future residents of this community.​

​

​

+ + +​

​

3,500 jobs is huge for this site, so expect big everything to make that work. Office, retail, transit hub, market & affordable residential… and I'll bet there are more community facilities coming than just daycare.

42

If I'm not mistaken...........doesn't a certain UT bigwig live quite close to this site? I would expect great things then as said individual leans in..........

 

[AHK]

I was being generous and didn't take any retail jobs in consideration. Regardless, it isn't much gross floor space even if you allocate the entire 3,500 to offices.

Time was - the per person space occupancy in a building averaged around 250 square feet or so per person. Back in the days when there were typing / secretarial pools, each manager with their own assistant, and lots of physical support space - supplies areas, photocopy / fax rooms, lots of file storage areas, and so on. A different world, and now all gone.

Nowadays - open office areas, a hundred square feet or so per worker place, and lots of hotelling - individuals whose work involves on site at customers or clients, staff who work at least part time, if not primarily from home or home office locations.

So assuming this office layout model - how many shared office desk locations, how many square feet of space would be required to support 3,500 staff if one were to make the assumption that on average, they would spend only 1 to 2 days a week in the office? A commitment to support 3,500 employment users / office workers may not translate into as much physical office space as might traditionally be assumed....

 

[Automation Gallery]

So assuming this office layout model - how many shared office desk locations, how many square feet of space would be required to support 3,500 staff if one were to make the assumption that on average, they would spend only 1 to 2 days a week in the office? A commitment to support 3,500 employment users / office workers may not translate into as much physical office space as might traditionally be assumed....

Forget office buildings, this could very well be another Sherway Gardens, they must employ 3500 people there?
...if i'm not mistaken building a mall here would fall as employment lands, no?

 

[AHK]

Forget office buildings, this could very well be another Sherway Gardens, they must employ 3500 people there?
...if i'm not mistaken building a mall here would fall as employment lands, no?

I somehow doubt that another Sherway Gardens or something equivalent in a retail mall incarnation would be the most likely outcome here. Among other things, many malls are struggling, it is those with a strong legacy as destination sites which appear to be doing the best - something increasingly difficult to do in a new build location unless one is in a rapidly expanding area (e.g an area of large suburban expansion, or major downtown intensification, such as around The Well). Given that this commitment to create employment area for 3,500 jobs is in essence a 'loss leader' commitment made in order to obtain the zoning approval for what First Capital really wants to build, the question becomes what would be the most economic means of fulfilling that obligation. Generic office space in a mid-rise building would be less costly, and would require less land, resulting in more space available for other productive uses, than building a shopping mall to employ a comparable number of people.