ushahid
Senior Member
Koop is a wonderful hero. 
- Thread starter raptor
- Start date
Koops65
Senior Member
Thanks guys...
The Niagara Falls to Toronto and back GO commute is for masochists only, no matter how many trains run.
42
ericmacm
Active Member
Seems like there's a lot of masochists out there these days, though. As ridiculous as it sounds, it's not unheard of for people live out as far as Innisfil and London and commute into Toronto via the 401 or VIA Rail to save a lot of money on housing costs.
No reason that the same won't happen for Niagara Falls, it is closer, after all.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The current Niagara service averages something like 40 people a day.
the people hyper commuting from places like that usually only do it 1-3 times a week and work from home otherwise.. if I could work from home 3 days a week I could maybe see doing it.. anything more and it would be too much.
Also: is it really that crazy to believe that jobs exist locally in these places? I feel like whenever suburban projects come up on these boards people assume everyone living there *has* to be commuting downtown. IIRC Downtown only has something like 15% of the GTAs employment..
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I think people fail to realize that the Niagara region contains nearly a half million people, and is rapidly growing alongside the rest of the GTHA.
gabe
Senior Member
Niagara Falls seems to have difficulty getting any of these tall tower proposals built. Not one has been built since the Hilton expansion.
Niagara isn't a year round detestation, you can get hotel rooms and Airbnb's for next to nothing during the winter months. When i visit friends in Niagara, i go during the off season. $300 a night hotel rooms during the summer, are less than $100 during the winter months.
Niagara isn't a year round detestation, you can get hotel rooms and Airbnb's for next to nothing during the winter months. When i visit friends in Niagara, i go during the off season. $300 a night hotel rooms during the summer, are less than $100 during the winter months.
cd concept
Senior Member
I thought you lived in Toronto. That'll be great! They'll be other high-rise buildings going up to like the billion-dollar Loretto estate area and other huge hotels too.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
The bottom line is Niagara Falls needs to begin thinking a little bit more urban -- i.e. add transit upgrades. This will be a 20-year plan (much like Brampton). If voters put mind to it (gradually) -- Niagara can very well pull off a Brampton rabbit out of the hat with a transit renewal.
The Niagara GO station also needs to become more of a comfortable wait (not an oven in the summer, nor freezing in winter). And there needs to be good transit upgrades in Niagara Falls. If this tower gets built, that would be a battle cry for transit upgrades.
Recently, I saw some Hamiltonians begin to wait for the GO train to Niagara Falls for the first time. Once West Harbour gets upgraded to a through station, and all Niagara trains begin stopping in Hamilton (ETA 2020), I would expect that Niagara-Hamilton commutes will become a thing as that commute tends to be faster than driving at peak.
There appears to be a roughly ~5x ridership boom at Hamilton West Harbour in just only 4 years
In 2015 -- Hamilton's West Harbour GO had only that many people total a day, a paltry 33 boarding the only 2 outgoing trains. That's only 16 or 17 people per train!
Now there's 8 trains per day (4 in, 4 out) and more people per train (both incoming AND out going, I personally counted) -- some trains had over 100 -- since the October service upgrade, few hundred people using West Harbour per day now! And they've earmarked that station as the all-day 2-way station. And this will only grow -- there's only 4 trains per day departing and 4 trains arriving per day. The station is slated to gain allday service sometime in the mid 2020s.
In the Metrolinx 2041 Regional Transportation Plan -- Hamilton West Harbour GO is the station chosen to gain allday 2-way service instead of Hamilton Downtown GO for the allday. Choosing a station connected to Niagara Falls! That makes it that much more likely that (someday) Niagara Falls will be connected to Hamilton.
Also, the fastest West Harbour train used to be 74 minutes. Now it's as little as 64-68 minutes to Toronto for some of the departing trains -- the Hamilton Downtown trains don't go that fast. And that's without the signals yet being activated over the 3rd Desjardins Canal track.
Other upgrades are under construction / planned / eventual that will speed this up slightly, and also further down Niagara, to reduce the >2.5h killer commute to a more manageable commute between 1.5h and 2h. Plus, I'm beginning to see the early beginnings of Hamilton-Niagara commuters (bare numbers, but should increase in 2020). Once West Harbour is turned into a through-station, ALL Niagara trains stop in Hamilton (and suddenly shortening the Toronto trip by almost 15 minutes by this one modification alone that prevents the silly backing-up of trains!) -- this will begin to be recognized as a valid commute option. Down the road, further speedups are available that makes Toronto-Niagara much faster than 403. Electrification is a possible option, especially given rapidly emerging 160kph battery trains. may allow electrification beyond Aldershot onto CN freight lines (recharge under catenary, then battery mode to Niagara) -- for much cheaper operating costs of all-day StCat / Niagara Falls service.
My prediction is in about 10 years, several hundreds will be boarding Niagara GO trains once there's 4 incoming/outgoing trains per day (8 total) once the trains take approximately 1¾ hour Niagara-Toronto, a savings of about 45 minutes compared to today. Beyond that (>2030) will be potential improvement to 1.25h using 200kph electrified commuter trains, especially if Empire corridor is also electrified (allowing Acela Expresses NYC-Toronto).
Don't undestimate the potential of the Hamilton-Niagara & the Hamilton-StCat commute pair (for residents at both ends)
Either way, the GO Expansion Business case are planning to use a semiexpress schedule (even skipping Appleby/Bronte) for the Lakeshore West allday extension south of Lake Ontario. While "under 2 hours" is a bit longish, look at Kitchener Line and how popular it is. And don't forget, Niagara-StCat, Niagara-Hamilton, are also valid bidirectional commute pairs. There's recent news of a $700M demolition-rebuild coming at Hamilton Jackson Square (City Centre) -- by an experienced developer who's densifying Kitchener-Waterloo with towers -- and reportedly will include a bunch of office/residential mixed use towers that's only 5-10 minute walk of West Harbour. Amongst dozens other new development proposals that has recently boomed into Hamilton as developers panic-realizes that our LRT isn't being cancelled and is being built after all.
Note: Hamilton LRT already started construction early works, and is awarding one of the 3 shortlisted bidders in April 2020 and beginning full speed construction by late 2020 -- it has started to trigger a development gold rush not too unlike Kitchener-Waterloo ION LRT. With the upcoming boom of jobs/residentials in Hamilton (mini sister crane city that's nearer than Toronto), Hamilton will increasingly become a viable commuter option (incoming and outgoing) to/from Niagara without a car too -- less than an hour away.
TL;DR: Toronto doesn't have to be the only destination of Niagara commuters. There's Hamilton, less than an hour away from Niagara Falls by train.
There are some currently Grimsby sub upgrades planned (new Metrolinx trackage, planned upgrades of crossings, and some grade separations, and turning West Harbour GO into a through-station) that is going to speed up the 2.5 hour ride to under 2 hours to Toronto. If that happens, that train service will explode in popularity since it will become faster than driving to Toronto. Some of these Niagara GO speedup upgrades are listed on Metrolinx's blog.
The Niagara GO station also needs to become more of a comfortable wait (not an oven in the summer, nor freezing in winter). And there needs to be good transit upgrades in Niagara Falls. If this tower gets built, that would be a battle cry for transit upgrades.
I also see some commuting between Niagara Falls to Hamilton. Hamilton's West Harbour GO service is increasing in popularity recently. However, only some Niagara trains stop there due to its nature as a dead-end station. However, plans are finally afoot to begin converting West Harbour into a through station in 2020.People do work in Niagara Falls, also it might appeal to some big shot americans who want a place on the other side of the border, even if just to host parties etc ??
Recently, I saw some Hamiltonians begin to wait for the GO train to Niagara Falls for the first time. Once West Harbour gets upgraded to a through station, and all Niagara trains begin stopping in Hamilton (ETA 2020), I would expect that Niagara-Hamilton commutes will become a thing as that commute tends to be faster than driving at peak.
This is paltry, but let's provide a glimpse of the future.
There appears to be a roughly ~5x ridership boom at Hamilton West Harbour in just only 4 years
In 2015 -- Hamilton's West Harbour GO had only that many people total a day, a paltry 33 boarding the only 2 outgoing trains. That's only 16 or 17 people per train!
Now there's 8 trains per day (4 in, 4 out) and more people per train (both incoming AND out going, I personally counted) -- some trains had over 100 -- since the October service upgrade, few hundred people using West Harbour per day now! And they've earmarked that station as the all-day 2-way station. And this will only grow -- there's only 4 trains per day departing and 4 trains arriving per day. The station is slated to gain allday service sometime in the mid 2020s.
In the Metrolinx 2041 Regional Transportation Plan -- Hamilton West Harbour GO is the station chosen to gain allday 2-way service instead of Hamilton Downtown GO for the allday. Choosing a station connected to Niagara Falls! That makes it that much more likely that (someday) Niagara Falls will be connected to Hamilton.
Also, the fastest West Harbour train used to be 74 minutes. Now it's as little as 64-68 minutes to Toronto for some of the departing trains -- the Hamilton Downtown trains don't go that fast. And that's without the signals yet being activated over the 3rd Desjardins Canal track.
Other upgrades are under construction / planned / eventual that will speed this up slightly, and also further down Niagara, to reduce the >2.5h killer commute to a more manageable commute between 1.5h and 2h. Plus, I'm beginning to see the early beginnings of Hamilton-Niagara commuters (bare numbers, but should increase in 2020). Once West Harbour is turned into a through-station, ALL Niagara trains stop in Hamilton (and suddenly shortening the Toronto trip by almost 15 minutes by this one modification alone that prevents the silly backing-up of trains!) -- this will begin to be recognized as a valid commute option. Down the road, further speedups are available that makes Toronto-Niagara much faster than 403. Electrification is a possible option, especially given rapidly emerging 160kph battery trains. may allow electrification beyond Aldershot onto CN freight lines (recharge under catenary, then battery mode to Niagara) -- for much cheaper operating costs of all-day StCat / Niagara Falls service.
My prediction is in about 10 years, several hundreds will be boarding Niagara GO trains once there's 4 incoming/outgoing trains per day (8 total) once the trains take approximately 1¾ hour Niagara-Toronto, a savings of about 45 minutes compared to today. Beyond that (>2030) will be potential improvement to 1.25h using 200kph electrified commuter trains, especially if Empire corridor is also electrified (allowing Acela Expresses NYC-Toronto).
Don't undestimate the potential of the Hamilton-Niagara & the Hamilton-StCat commute pair (for residents at both ends)
Either way, the GO Expansion Business case are planning to use a semiexpress schedule (even skipping Appleby/Bronte) for the Lakeshore West allday extension south of Lake Ontario. While "under 2 hours" is a bit longish, look at Kitchener Line and how popular it is. And don't forget, Niagara-StCat, Niagara-Hamilton, are also valid bidirectional commute pairs. There's recent news of a $700M demolition-rebuild coming at Hamilton Jackson Square (City Centre) -- by an experienced developer who's densifying Kitchener-Waterloo with towers -- and reportedly will include a bunch of office/residential mixed use towers that's only 5-10 minute walk of West Harbour. Amongst dozens other new development proposals that has recently boomed into Hamilton as developers panic-realizes that our LRT isn't being cancelled and is being built after all.
Note: Hamilton LRT already started construction early works, and is awarding one of the 3 shortlisted bidders in April 2020 and beginning full speed construction by late 2020 -- it has started to trigger a development gold rush not too unlike Kitchener-Waterloo ION LRT. With the upcoming boom of jobs/residentials in Hamilton (mini sister crane city that's nearer than Toronto), Hamilton will increasingly become a viable commuter option (incoming and outgoing) to/from Niagara without a car too -- less than an hour away.
TL;DR: Toronto doesn't have to be the only destination of Niagara commuters. There's Hamilton, less than an hour away from Niagara Falls by train.
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Deaf_Torontian
Active Member
Niagara Falls not small town but Niagara Falls neighbour is Thorold and St. Catharines but one day Niagara Falls between Thorold will build more houses, new street, new shopping then St. Catharines-Thorold-Niagara Falls just like Waterloo-Kitchener-Cambridge but if Niagara Falls -Thorold did build many houses like make 100,000 population extra then Niagara Falls-Thorold can meet Welland, who know? but right now .. St. Catharines-Thorold-Niagara Falls like over 240,000 but ad Welland like 293,000 ...in my opinion ... Niagara Falls just like Las Vegas so let them build it
cd concept
Senior Member
They also fail to understand that the Niagara Metro area combined with Buffalo's Metro area combine is over 1.6 million people on other end of the Golden horseshoe. That is starting to wake up in population growth from people fleeing from the intensification of Toronto area. And even Buffalo wants to get into the action connecting they're train lines with the Niagara GoLine at Niagara Falls train station as seen on Niagara Falls Council. Stanley Avenue from the 420 to Mcleod Road is going to start building a lot of high-rise and skyscrapers in the future. And Downtown Niagara Falls is going to be redeveloped with condos and a University next to the station.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
It is very interesting that the new building would obviously be taller than any building in Canada outside of Toronto (and excluding the Inco Superstack, though the chimney will be demolished by the time 6609 Stanley Avenue is built, and excluding M3 in Mississauga) and taller than any building in Upstate New York.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
Doesnt Edmonton have something pretty close?
isaidso
Senior Member
The desire for urban living isn't restricted to our biggest metros. It's just less pronounced in smaller metros. Besides, every metro begins its urban journey somewhere. NF can't and won't stay suburban forever. NF is a little unique in that height is fuelled by views of the falls but that just means it has added impetus and a head start.
Whether one likes this design or not, the more important point is that NF might start seeing its permanent residential population 'downtown' start growing significantly. That's the first step in building a dense vibrant core. This will be decades in the making, of course.
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