urbandreamer said:
Walmart won't kill Kensington but it may kill Chinatown, at least the "junk" shops.
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disagree Chinatown has some great grocery stores,cheap and fresh.I know restaurant owners that goes to Chinatown and bypass Kessington for the fruits,seafood and veggies.
 
Parkdalian said:
Sure, plopping a Walmart here might do nothing. But it might do a lot of negative things, and it doesn't need to be here - plenty of us have been getting by with the one at Dufferin.
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Ok, sure, obviously if something leads to plenty of negative consequences governments should strongly consider prohibiting its activity.

The problem with this argument is that it's not clear there *would* be any unambiguously negative consequences. Maybe there are, but in the past ~5 pages here I have yet to see any actual negative consequences beyond traffic impacts and the potential for bad design. Like, people point out that Walmart's employees aren't unionized as if that proves RioCan shouldn't be allowed to build this. It's ridiculous that people even bring up a point like this. I really hope I don't have to elaborate on why that's not a good justification.

How on earth would WalMart be any different from Honest Ed's?
 
diminutive said:
Ok, sure, obviously if something leads to plenty of negative consequences governments should strongly consider prohibiting its activity.

The problem with this argument is that it's not clear there *would* be any unambiguously negative consequences. Maybe there are, but in the past ~5 pages here I have yet to see any actual negative consequences beyond traffic impacts and the potential for bad design. Like, people point out that Walmart's employees aren't unionized as if that proves RioCan shouldn't be allowed to build this. It's ridiculous that people even bring up a point like this. I really hope I don't have to elaborate on why that's not a good justification.

How on earth would WalMart be any different from Honest Ed's?
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I also find the argument that "plenty of people get buy at Dufferin Wal-Mart" somewhat inane.
Are we protesting Wal-Mart because:
1) We don't agree with their labour practices, but its ok to shop at the Wal-Mart in Dufferin Grove, which has the same labour practices?
2) We don't like the urban scale of this proposed "mall" which we haven't seen final renders of - but can't be any less urban than Dufferin Grove
3) Concerned that it will destroy Kensington Market - which for some reason has become fetishized by Downtown Torontonians as some sort of model of boho authenticity even as many new merchants in Kensington actually have higher price points than WalMart.

Downtown Toronto is not a themepark. I also resent the imbued sense of class connotation in this protest - Wal-Mart is perceived to be low class and god forbid we have a lower end department store near our precious organic market. There's significant irony here - we're trying to chase away a mass market retailer to protect pseudo bohenmian retailers that are high-end in sheeps clothing.
 
I do not care what the retailer is here, only the exterior aesthetics. Is the building capable of being timeless, interesting, respectful of its context and flexible?--Walmart may not be here forever.

Sounds like a design challenge to me! ;)
 
pw20 said:
I also find the argument that "plenty of people get buy at Dufferin Wal-Mart" somewhat inane.
Are we protesting Wal-Mart because:
1) We don't agree with their labour practices, but its ok to shop at the Wal-Mart in Dufferin Grove, which has the same labour practices?
2) We don't like the urban scale of this proposed "mall" which we haven't seen final renders of - but can't be any less urban than Dufferin Grove
3) Concerned that it will destroy Kensington Market - which for some reason has become fetishized by Downtown Torontonians as some sort of model of boho authenticity even as many new merchants in Kensington actually have higher price points than WalMart.

Downtown Toronto is not a themepark. I also resent the imbued sense of class connotation in this protest - Wal-Mart is perceived to be low class and god forbid we have a lower end department store near our precious organic market. There's significant irony here - we're trying to chase away a mass market retailer to protect pseudo bohenmian retailers that are high-end in sheeps clothing.
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1. No, it's not okay to shop at Walmart anywhere. They're extremely destructive to independent businesses everywhere, to their employees who are prevented from unionizing, and they comprise/promote the worst kind of consumption by selling sweatshop junk that's so cheap. Terrible for the environment, terrible for equality, terrible for the economy, terrible for labour.
2. Are you suggesting it's possible that a Walmart is going to be positioned in a tiny narrow retail slot alongside numerous other stores, in the sort of arrangement found on Queen West or Bloor in the Annex? I think it's incredibly unlikely.
3. Are you saying you don't think Kensington is worth preserving? It's an incredibly special environment in Toronto, let alone Canada, and part of what makes Kensington Kensington is the diverse and locally-owned retail environment.
4. Yeah, it's not a themepark for corporations to do whatever they want. And are you implying that Walmart a progressive presence, doing a good service to the poor because their prices are low? Cheapness is not activism. The countless bad effects of Walmart more than make up for the accessibility of their prices. Furthermore, there are countless cheap goods to be found in Kensington and in Chinatown; even if cheapness is all you care about, Walmart in this area is redundant.
 
arvelomcquaig said:
1. No, it's not okay to shop at Walmart anywhere. They're extremely destructive to independent businesses everywhere, to their employees who are prevented from unionizing, and they comprise/promote the worst kind of consumption by selling sweatshop junk that's so cheap. Terrible for the environment, terrible for equality, terrible for the economy, terrible for labour.
2. Are you suggesting it's possible that a Walmart is going to be positioned in a tiny narrow retail slot alongside numerous other stores, in the sort of arrangement found on Queen West or Bloor in the Annex? I think it's incredibly unlikely.
3. Are you saying you don't think Kensington is worth preserving? It's an incredibly special environment in Toronto, let alone Canada, and part of what makes Kensington Kensington is the diverse and locally-owned retail environment.
4. Yeah, it's not a themepark for corporations to do whatever they want. And are you implying that Walmart a progressive presence, doing a good service to the poor because their prices are low? Cheapness is not activism. The countless bad effects of Walmart more than make up for the accessibility of their prices. Furthermore, there are countless cheap goods to be found in Kensington and in Chinatown; even if cheapness is all you care about, Walmart in this area is redundant.
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1. That’s a value judgment that you’ve made for yourself, which you’re extrapolating to an entire neighbourhood. No thanks please. I can choose to shop where I like. I take it you don’t shop at any other mass market retailer? To quote Diminutive, since he or she is way more eloquent than I am: “In every significant respect Walmart isn't any different from any other retailer. It's hardly the only shop to sell products with questionable ethical origins. It's labour practices aren't any worse than any other retailer downtown (probably better than many Chinatown stores...) Like, people here criticize it for creating low paid service sector jobs, as if Kensington Market is a hub of blue collar auto workers and USW employees. It is frustrating that simply mentioning WalMart will elicit so much opinion mongering. It's like a kind of left-wing kabuki where everyone dressed up and feigns moral indignation over WalMart while apparently Honest Eds, which sells all sorts of sweatshop junk, is A-OK. We might as well ban Amazon.ca from Toronto since it's run all our independent bookstores out of business. Or Newegg.ca for competing with the computer stores in Chinatown. Or the foodtrucks for competing with sit down places. Or or or... And the one legit criticism of Walmart, that it's usually predicated on soulless power centers, gets lost in all the fuss. This is supposed to be a site dedicated to urban design. Yet all that goes out the window with WalMart as everyone's inner social engineer comes out and starts giving baseless opinions of what kind of jobs downtown 'needs' or what kind of retail other people ought to have.â€

2. This is a legitimate concern - and we haven't seen final renders. However, have you walked down that Stretch of Bathurst? There is nothing there remotely similar to a high street in Toronto. It is, to be quite frank, one of the ugliest stretches of major street in downtown Toronto. If this development looks like the retail podium of RioCan’s Queen and Portland Centre – I’ll be impressed and will greatly and vastly improve the urban realm in the area. Shocking I know – because it’s a WalMart. Toronto is welcoming hundreds of thousands of new residents downtown. These people need retail amenities – finding ways to allow for big box retail while retaining our urban form is going to be a challenge – RioCan’s Queen and Portland Centre isn’t perfect (the tower is god awful) but it’s a start. Directing people to shop at WalMart at the Dufferin Mall simply because you don’t want a WalMart on Bathurst is some pseudo reverse form of nimby’ism. I don't have a car. Its actually far to get from the Annex to the Dufferin Mall. I suspect that this WalMart will feed CityPlace residents who can quickly take the Bathurst Streetcar.

3.
I’m not saying that at all. I’ve been pretty clear that WalMart, in my opinion, doesn’t compete with Kensington merchants, especially the direction of the market over the last few years which has migrated to specialized restaurants, vintage furniture stores and higher end house hold goods. Ironically most of these stores are now representative of the higher-income population which has moved back downtown gentrifying Little Italy and the lower annex. Furthermore – the proposted WalMart isn’t actually in the market. The hysteria – WalMart – comes to Kensington - makes it sound like we’re tearing down the market and replacing it with a WalMart. We’re not. Its on a major street. In fact, weight for it, removing big box retail from kensigton actually protects it from big box encroachment. We're facilitating brand name retail to open on a major street, presumably removing the need for branded retail to encroach on the actual market. If you've ever worked with a big brand retail - you'd probably hear that the market, as currently set-up, isn't the ideal place for branded retail. There's little to no access delivery, the buildings are too small, have smaller ceiling heights etc... If you love kensington so much and want to preserve it - creating retail around Kensington that is geared to Top Tier retailers is actually beneficial to the Market's status quo.

To your point about “worth preservation†– what does that mean? Why didn’t we preserve Kensington market as a Jewish market? Let’s just make sure everything stays as is and nothing changes ever. Because that’s a healthy way to build a city. As a giant and growing city –Toronto is constantly changing and evolving. This is great, this is what makes Toronto awesome – I would be concerned if major retailers weren’t interested in opening up retail establishments in Toronto.

As for the market, Kensington will continue to evolve and meet different needs of its surrounding population as its continuing to do. To your point – Kensington is vastly unique within Toronto and I believe this will be its hedge against WalMart. There is nothing like it in Toronto and in fact Canada – this, in my opinion, makes Kensington a tourist attraction. Ya know what isn’t a tourist attractin? WalMart. And that’s all ok… People live in downtown Toronto and people who live in downtown Tornoto need to buy toilet paper. Let them do so! And let people continue to head to Kensington for the experience, for car free Sundays…

4. Downtown Toronto isn’t a themepark that we can simply flash freeze as a point in time. It’s not sim city. We can’t just plop down buildings like manna from heaven or bulldoze things simply because the royal we doesn’t like them.
If we’re concerned about unique retail in downtown – I would have been more concerned about CB2 opening a major store on Queen West, directly competing with many local stores and being price competitive. WalMart offering a different product mix from organic butchers, and vintage clothing stores.

I will continue to buy my Le Creuset from the Good Egg and I look forward to buying toilet paper from WalMart.
 
pw20 said:
1. That’s a value judgment that you’ve made for yourself, which you’re extrapolating to an entire neighbourhood. No thanks please. I can choose to shop where I like. I take it you don’t shop at any other mass market retailer? To quote Diminutive, since he or she is way more eloquent than I am: “In every significant respect Walmart isn't any different from any other retailer. It's hardly the only shop to sell products with questionable ethical origins. It's labour practices aren't any worse than any other retailer downtown (probably better than many Chinatown stores...) Like, people here criticize it for creating low paid service sector jobs, as if Kensington Market is a hub of blue collar auto workers and USW employees. It is frustrating that simply mentioning WalMart will elicit so much opinion mongering. It's like a kind of left-wing kabuki where everyone dressed up and feigns moral indignation over WalMart while apparently Honest Eds, which sells all sorts of sweatshop junk, is A-OK. We might as well ban Amazon.ca from Toronto since it's run all our independent bookstores out of business. Or Newegg.ca for competing with the computer stores in Chinatown. Or the foodtrucks for competing with sit down places. Or or or... And the one legit criticism of Walmart, that it's usually predicated on soulless power centers, gets lost in all the fuss. This is supposed to be a site dedicated to urban design. Yet all that goes out the window with WalMart as everyone's inner social engineer comes out and starts giving baseless opinions of what kind of jobs downtown 'needs' or what kind of retail other people ought to have.”
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Of course you can shop where you like, but I think critisizing Walmart is a much tougher position to take that simply ignoring the well documented and in my opinion fair criticism of Walmart. Much easier to ignore the implications and just be happy that we can all save money. However, some people, myself included do find issue with the way in which Walmart conducts itself, and I can also assure you that my life is equally if not more complete without ever having shopped at Walmart, (ok perhaps once or twice before I went off to school years ago). You're intitled to your opinion and free will, absolutely, but I would suggest looking at the reasons why some avoid it like the plague may actually change ones opinion.
Surely most can agree that predatory pricing, buying out suppliers to eliminate any available supply to competition, and paying extremely low wages, including denying overtime to some, as a model for business are not positive socially speaking, or in terms of the retail economy as a whole, and have serious ethical implications about how companies treat their employees. Walmart does all of these things often and that has been documented. None of this is baseless, and the fact that many take issue with the way in which Walmart conducts itself would mean that there is ligitimate concern about not only the smaller local retailers but also the ethical implications behind some of their practices. And yes there are other corporations that do run their practice in a similar manner, but I have not read nearly as many articles in reputable magazines or news sites/papers about others as I have about Walmart. Therefore, when one company sets a precedent for distructive behaviour and there are documented examples from other places, then that becomes the poster boy for EDLP nastyness, and if it is the most aggressive in these practices, it would make sense to critisize it first. As well, many of the independent book stores have simply moved to more enlightened parts of our cities. Anyway, if you like Walmart and don't care about the ethical negatives, then shop away. Personally, it offends me when I read that Walmart founder Sam Walton once said, "I pay low wages. I can take advantage of that. We're going to be successful, but the basis is a very low-wage, low-benefit model of employment." And he sure has taken advantage.
 
I agree with Alvin , I just want the building to work. I have no problem with the Loblaws on Queen Street for comparison. That being said the existing site is aweful so it wouldn't be hard to improve on what's there.
 
TrickyRicky said:
I agree with Alvin , I just want the building to work. I have no problem with the Loblaws on Queen Street for comparison. That being said the existing site is aweful so it wouldn't be hard to improve on what's there.
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Agreed, any change would be a start for this stretch, in terms of urbanity.
 
One negative aspect of parking provided for one store is that they don't like you're not going to that store. Try parking at a fast food restaurant to go a medical building next door. Expect it to be towed.

The city should make it illegal to tow said vehicle from the parking lot. If they use it to visit a neighbouring establishment, their vehicle should still be there on they're return.

420 Bathurst is close to Toronto Western Hospital. Allow the visitors or patients, who come by car, to use the parking lot to visit neighbours, including the hospital, Kensington Market, and Alexandra Park. No towing.
 
Parkdalian said:
People defending Wal-Mart seems so absurd to me. It's like those "Yay! Capitalism!" marches the Objectivists always try to organize. It's like an exercise in butt kissing when the butt is so large it couldn't even feel your lips no matter how hard you pressed.
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I thought this was brilliantly put and worthy of re-posting.

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but there's a community consultation tonight, which I will be attending. Details below

Date: TONIGHT Thursday, June 6, 2013

Time: 7:00pm – 9:00 pm

Place: College St United Church, Sanctuary / Auditorium
454 College Street, northwest corner, College and Bathurst
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Source: Friends of Kensington Market
 
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Apparently it went real well. :p

Inspired by the nimby tweets last night I came up with an alternative proposal:
nimbytect7june2013420ba.png

With more images & the "storey" in the fantasy renderings thread.
 
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