- Thread starter Northern Light
- Start date
Neil
Active Member
sche
Active Member
The Sheppard Subway cost 933M, which is about 1.5B inflation adjusted, and it's 5.5km long - about 300M CAD/km inflation adjusted.
Bay is less than 2.9km from Union to Bloor - at 1.5B that would be over 517M CAD/km, which is already a ~70% premium over Sheppard, probably enough to account for increased complexity in Downtown and maybe even enough to have ~800m average stop spacing instead of ~1.3km for Sheppard if using and shorter platforms and smaller stations.
As a sanity check, 517M CAD/km = 377 USD/km, which is about right for a very complex project in a normal-cost country. Some examples (USD/km):
- U5 through the center of Berlin, 310M/km
- Rome Line C, phase 3 (under central Rome beside the Colosseum and other Roman structures where they have to manually mine everything to avoid damaging Roman structures and ruins) - 414M/km
- Leipzig City Tunnel (center of Leipzig and sized for mainline trains) - 346M/km
Whether a Bay subway is a good idea is a different question, but if this was anywhere with normal costs (Europe not including UK, Korea, Japan, mainland China or even 1990 Canada), 1.5B would actually be a pretty reasonable cost for a Bay subway from Bloor to Union.
afransen
Senior Member
I'm not sure Sheppard subway under a suburban stroad is the best analogue for building a subway under a skyscaper-lined downtown street. Where would you launch the TBM? Some major practicality questions there.
Construction costs have been rising much faster than inflation. OL is $700M/km and mostly above ground. I don't see how Toronto builds a Bay subway line for less than $1B/km.
Northern Light
Superstar
@afransen is correct.
The numbers for Ontario Line, which I would deem to be conservative (small c); indicate a cost of 700m per/km, and that's for a project that has a substantial above ground component, and smaller platforms and trains than are typical for Toronto.
A Bay Street line running Bloor to Union with tail tracks at both ends is ~3.5km
Toronto's cost-of-living, driven primarily by real estate is 40% more expensive than Rome, and 20% more expensive than Berlin.
We can argue about whether that is justified.........but it is what it is when calculating costs.
Last edited:
T3G
Senior Member
To add, even the Scarborough Subway is much more expensive than the Sheppard Subway. I don't have the hard figures to hand right now but is the cost of the extension not in the neighbourhood of $4 billion?
Northern Light
Superstar
nfitz
Superstar
That doesn't sound right for over 20 years of inflation.
What inflation index did you use? Hopefully not the consumer price index!
3Dementia
Senior Member
Just a story from storeys about the AECOM award announced last month (with some more images in the link).
Read:
https://storeys.com/toronto-transit-commission-bloor-yonge-station-contract-aecom/
storeys.com
storeys.com
Read:
https://storeys.com/toronto-transit-commission-bloor-yonge-station-contract-aecom/
storeys.com
storeys.com
mildlyamusingusername
New Member
1.5 billion and no spare change for platform doors? True genius at work over at the TTC
Last edited:
junctionist
Senior Member
Some architectural interior wall cladding materials would have been nice, like in the Montreal Metro. It would have also been advisable from a civic and cultural perspective to integrate more art into the structural features of the station like the walls.
Northern Light
Superstar
I have spoken to senior people at the City about the importance of building those into the project; I have some hope..... (fingers crossed). That discussion was a couple of months back. These renders were long since done by then.
Northern Light
Superstar
The project will qualify for public art under the TTC's policy. Regrettably, they now tend to treat art projects as stand-alone, instead of integrating them into architectural finish and coordinating the finishes accordingly. We'll have to see what unfolds here.
For the record, the actual finishes will not be ordered for a good long while; the renders are somewhat more than place holder at this point, but not yet definitive.
Don't like what you see? Now's the time to See something, Say something, to Someone in the Mayor's Office, or the TTC Chair, or the project manager in house, don't waste time on Rick.
T3G
Senior Member
The blackened ceiling is disheartening to see. Even covered in dirt and grime, the coloured ceilings made the stations look far more pleasant and inviting than they do today.
Northern Light
Superstar
What 'coloured' ceilings are we talking about?
For the most part, the TTC paints the ceiling over the tracks black these days (it was once white); with the exceptions of Queen, (red/blue/white striped effect), Pape (navy blue) and North York Centre with blue reflective slats, most ceilings over the tracks are black.
Over the platforms, the default finish is either white, or matte or reflective silver/grey.
Here, you're getting white over the platform. The black shouldn't be predominant at all, it will read white, unless you're looking up between the slats.
Keep in mind, as well, if we get full-height platform edge doors, the ceilings over the track will barely be visible.