I agree with all your comments about Aa - and I am confident they would do a great job on Signature.

I was curious however what ProjectEnd found so lacking in the RAW proposal.
 
I'd love to see what Zaha Hadid would do with this site. Or Frank Gehry. Or Renzo Piano. Or Calatrava. Or Norman Foster. Or Rem Koolhaus / OMA. Tado Ando. Coop Himmelblau. Bjarke Ingels. MVRDV. Herzog & DeMeuron. Steven Holl. K2S. Kenzo Tange. Wang Shu. Christian de Portzamparc. Jean Nouvel. Thom Mayne.

For starters.
 
I'd love to see more (or something) in this city from any of those firms, but I get tired of the cheap-shot, lazy, mostly unsupportable, bitching about aA. Here's to a great building rising on this site; it's an important one.

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While I love the big name architects listed by CN just as much as anyone, I am not necessarily convinced Concord is the right client. Although their projects of late have been more adventurous in terms of design, I don't see the level of committment required to see through a project that would end badly with excessive amounts of value engineering. If it was Cityzen, perhaps. As to the appropriateness of aA - hard to judge considering we haven't even seen a rendering.

And why are people so uptight about aA/sigature anyways? It isn't even THAT Canada's tallest residential tower - and that one got off scrutiny from design lens easy. Ditto the Bazis 1BE proposal.

AoD
 
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I love that those for whom aA is not exactly their favourite architect, and who go on ad nauseum about the Toronto Box, ignore the fact that aA's Ãce with its disciplined curves and fantastic cladding is arguably the most exciting complex going skyward right now, that aA's Market Wharf, forced into being a slab by the height-haunted St. Lawrence neighbourhood types, is despite that looking more and more amazing with every floor of its alternating wave pattern balcony glass getting installed, that aA's Theatre Park with its diagonal banding promises to be one of the most eye-catching designs on the Downtown skyline, that aA's Sixty Colbourne plan features unique, deep orange textural framing on its podium and a richly detailed laneway arch at street level… and on and on, project after project. We are far richer for having aA making a major contribution to our city.

Those who accuse aA of doing nothing more than "boring" boxes are either being willfully disingenuous, and are therefore trolling, or are simply so prejudiced that they are blind to what is really going on.

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Fair comment. While I'd personally exclude Sixty Colbourne from my hits list, I'm right with you on Ãce, Market Wharf and Theatre Park being among the best underway in the City right now --- IMHO there should be little doubt that at least the top third of what aA turns out is really great. That's part of the reason the lower two-thirds is so disappointing to many: we know what Clewes is capable of, and instead get bland buildings where you see the same family of design themes executed less effectively.

It's like he directs a blockbuster film that everyone raves about and then grinds out four direct-to-video sequels that not only disappoint individually but also resemble the blockbuster enough that they sort of tarnish its legacy as well. Combine that with the sheer volume of buildings that are churned out (is there another firm in the Toronto hi-rise residential market that's putting out more product?), and the haughty lectures that get dispensed around these parts from a cast of several that we're just too ignorant in the ways of architecture to "get" the world-beating modernist perfection that is Murano or Spire, and I think you can begin to understand some of the pushback.
 
While I love the big name architects listed by CN just as much as anyone, I am not necessarily convinced Concord is the right client. Although their projects of late have been more adventurous in terms of design, I don't see the level of committment required to see through a project that would end badly with excessive amounts of value engineering.
AoD

True. The only reason Concord started hiring firms like KPMB at all is because the city told them they wouldn't tolerate the schlock they doled out in their first phases. Concord as the client of a signature architect spells disaster. I can just see someone like Renzo Piano telling them to go *uck themselves when they try to value engineer the architecture out of their design.
 
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Fair comment. While I'd personally exclude Sixty Colbourne from my hits list, I'm right with you on Ãce, Market Wharf and Theatre Park being among the best underway in the City right now --- IMHO there should be little doubt that at least the top third of what aA turns out is really great. That's part of the reason the lower two-thirds is so disappointing to many: we know what Clewes is capable of, and instead get bland buildings where you see the same family of design themes executed less effectively.

It's like he directs a blockbuster film that everyone raves about and then grinds out four direct-to-video sequels that not only disappoint individually but also resemble the blockbuster enough that they sort of tarnish its legacy as well. Combine that with the sheer volume of buildings that are churned out (is there another firm in the Toronto hi-rise residential market that's putting out more product?), and the haughty lectures that get dispensed around these parts from a cast of several that we're just too ignorant in the ways of architecture to "get" the world-beating modernist perfection that is Murano or Spire, and I think you can begin to understand some of the pushback.

The thing is though, even aA's least inspiring work is far more attractive and resolved than the least offensive buildings second-rate that firms such as P&S, Kirkor, G+C throw up everywhere. aA's standard glass box may be boring to a lot of eyes, but at least it doesn't attempt to claw them out with garish, cheap precast and seagreen blues.
 
aA has never designed disasters; their worst built buildings are arguably Radio City and Glas which aren't even that bad, yet at the same time they've yet to create anything iconic. Yes they have Four Seasons, Ice, Market Wharf, Burano, 60 Colburne, Theatre Park, etc. But those are all above average at this point and nothing more, only because this city already has so much glass.
I loved RAW's design because it was different. Its just what that site needed, it was bold, imposing, had texture and best of all it was unique.
I feel that aA will come up with something in the same range as Ice or Market wharf, which are both great but it the same thing we've over and over again.
 
I think most aA buildings are above average, but their ubiquitous ice palace look is still incredibly boring, and seems more perfunctory with every new iteration. What would Clewes do if there was a glass shortage? That's what I want to see.
 
I love that those for whom aA is not exactly their favourite architect, and who go on ad nauseum about the Toronto Box, ignore the fact that aA's Ãce with its disciplined curves and fantastic cladding is arguably the most exciting complex going skyward right now, that aA's Market Wharf, forced into being a slab by the height-haunted St. Lawrence neighbourhood types, is despite that looking more and more amazing with every floor of its alternating wave pattern balcony glass getting installed, that aA's Theatre Park with its diagonal banding promises to be one of the most eye-catching designs on the Downtown skyline, that aA's Sixty Colbourne plan features unique, deep orange textural framing on its podium and a richly detailed laneway arch at street level… and on and on, project after project. We are far richer for having aA making a major contribution to our city.

Those who accuse aA of doing nothing more than "boring" boxes are either being willfully disingenuous, and are therefore trolling, or are simply so prejudiced that they are blind to what is really going on.

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And that the Four Seasons box, is probably the most spectacular box ever seen in Toronto.
 
It's not that he doesn't read them - his objective is to pick a fight, not engage in discussion - further reinforced by post #418 - replying to his posts is futile.

Oh, $%^& off Project End. That you've gotten to a mod stage with that narrow mind of yours is a shame and a pain in the ass. Stop reflexively shitting on people, and just do your job for awhile.

Very true, but Project End is from the other spectrum and doesn't contribute anything positive to the discussion either. If anyone needs me, I'll be camping out somewhere in the middle ground.

Strong language. Let's take a second to dissect what seems to be going on here.

I, unsure what was so ground-breaking about the RAW proposal, asked that very question a page or so back. Responses varied but generally adhered to the: 'it's not a Toronto box' talking-point (buildup, I apologize, I should have responded when you first asked). I didn't and still don't see how canting one wall out then in again and pixelating the other two was symbolic of a dramatic departure from 'the norm.'

interchange then gave us an elegant description of how aA rises above the rest yet still catches flack on UT for not doing...something(?). CanadianNational then posed a list of his/her dream firms to which interchange and Alvin raised fair points about the nature of clients and what Concord might do if they had hired Piano or some other architect of international repute.

neubilder then gave us an 'interesting' conspiracy theory as to why Concord moved from full service firms of the HOK and P+S variety to design-focused offices like KPMB - *hint: the real reason they did this can be found in our Prishram Jain interview from a few weeks back (and people accuse me of not reading things). Sentinel, egotrippin and arvelomcquaig then offered differing yet generally positive of support for aA.

And here is where things get a bit murky. At this point, our very own Architect let us know that while aA's sense of materiality is superior, their 'designs' are 'below-average,' then oddly invoked my name in a triumphalist, 'I-refuse-to-engage' corollary. Next, I'm being told '$%^& off' and am accused of 'not reading, just arguing' (paraphrased).

So, where does that leave us? Given that the posts taking issue with ProjectEnd centered around trolling and 'forum decorum' (I do like that one!), what can be said about those that followed my own cheeky (though accurate) response to The_Architect? Pause for reflection, no?

I think I find it odd that people take such issue with what I and many others consider to be the best firm in the city. Wouldn't that bile be better-directed at something like Kirkor, G+C, E.I. Richmond, Raphael & Bigauskas, P+S, Baldwin and Franklin and so forth (the list does, sadly, go on and on). Yet many ignore the incredible things aA is doing (re-read interchange's excellent post for a more complete description) and simply choose to harp on the fact that the majority of their work is rectilinear (would anyone accuse David Chipperfield of just doing 'boring British boxes?'). If you need 'proof,' just check out Atlantis' latest photoset in the Pure Spirit thread. If there's any multi-unit, residential building in Toronto which even approaches the quality displayed there, please let me know.

I am passionate about the firm in question and I wear that passion on my sleeve. It's therefore hard to read uninformed (technically speaking) criticism from members who clearly aren't familiar with how a building is brought to life (no fault of their own). For example, the idea that a box is 'easier' to design than some other shape (save perhaps for Absolute in Mississauga which required a reevaluation of construction techniques and was far costlier because of it) is ridiculous.

It's never my intention to boil blood but sometimes tempers do spill over. It's also hard to receive 'you-only-argue' style snipes after spending hours agonizing over the format of a post (and from members who often refuse to use proper punctuation). However, to anyone I may have offended over the years - I do heartily apologize.
 
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aA has never designed disasters; their worst built buildings are arguably Radio City and Glas which aren't even that bad.

Radio City joins seamlessly with KPMB's ballet school - most folks would probably assume they're by the same designer, and the small scale at lobby level is quite charming for such tall towers.
 
Count me as someone who is very respectful of aA work. I pay no mind to bashers.

There are reservations, of course (more developer-related). I am afraid of repetition of aA design approaches at 501 Yonge. I think most posters here are afraid of that, given the nearness to Murano/Burano just a stone's throw away.

Then it's a beholder thing. On my morning walk to the Y, I see the east and north sides of the Burano buildings, and problem balconies aside, I see beauty. I also see beauty in Burano, across Bay.

No one can knock Radio City as far as I am concerned. The horizontal interplay of the glass and the stone in the towers is brilliant, like fingers of one's hands interlocking (one hand is gloved).

Looking forward to seeing renders of the City Place signature tower. I hope they dish up something new and enticing as I am sure they can.
 

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