scaberian:

Err, if all the buildings in EBF approaches the quality of architecture in the original Diamond + Schmitt proposal, it'd be one of the most architecturally interesting districts in the city.

AoD
 
The reason why the Corus project is such an unmitigated disaster, is that the Waterfront initiative is supposed to redefine Toronto - it's supposed to create a new frame of reference as to what our city is about.

Instead, the very first project is presented as, well, a competent, suburban office building. That's not the frame of reference that most people would be hoping for. So it goes beyond whether the building is safe and utilitarian, versus "frivolous".

What the supporters of this are missing, in a very profound way, including the architect, is the whole reason behind the Waterfront project, and I will say it again, to create a new frame of reference as to what our city is about.

Grade- F
 
I am not so obsessed about this particular building since it only a rather tiny component of EBF. The only thing I am annoyed by Diamond et. al. so far is not the design, but the cheap out bait-n-switch (e.g. precast vs. black granite, elimination of the chrome egg, etc).

AoD

I think that's a fair assessment. The Diamond proposal pre-cheapening (including the granite, orb and the better-placed loading docks) would have been just fine for the uses the building was to contain. I just have trouble getting how a few people will defend anything, including this bait-and-switch (apt term) because of the name brand architect.
 
Err, if all the buildings in EBF approaches the quality of architecture in the original Diamond + Schmitt proposal, it'd be one of the most architecturally interesting districts in the city.

Next to the Facade District, I propose...the Proposal District, featuring huge cardboard boxes pasted over with copies of watercolour renderings. Why settle for the real thing when the what-might-have-been is of higher quality? Foster can even design us a canopy to keep the cardboard from getting soggy.
 
Tewder says, "Diamond and his fan club here all seem stuck on the idea that a building must either be practical/functional/utilitarian or frivolous/hollow spectacle. The fact that they cannot perceive of a building that achieves both is part of the problem with Diamond's approach to design ..." .

The terms I quote above are yours, not mine. It is the false dichotomy you have set up regarding this building and pretty much everything else done by Diamond, frankly. What you have defined and dismissed as 'hollow spectacle' others here might define as 'art', an element of architecture that distinguishes it from pure engineering, and that ensures us something more than pure function. It is hoped that a building will offer both, and this is even more true in certain contexts where the mandate is both function and beauty.

So, quite clearly, Tewder sees frivolous/hollow spectacle as a desirable add-on.

Fortunately, Diamond never has.


I don't dislike Diamond's aesthetic for certain contexts.
 
scarberiankhatru: Your Proposal District sounds suspiciously like the Edifice Complex that I've been pushing for some time.

Toronto's Edifice Complex, which will make us reely reely world class, will consist of a dozen or more hollow spectacle structures on a prominent downtown waterfront site. It will draw massive numbers of foreign tourists, along with their carbon footprints, year round. Its "buildings" won't have doors, because they won't serve any purpose other than to impress. The Edifice Complex will have a supremely pure uselessness that other structures - the Sydney Opera House, for instance, which is merely a faux Edifice Complex since folks can get into it but not enjoy acoustics that are particularly good once they're there - don't have. Naturally, not all high-fashion novelty shapes fall into even this category - some, like the ROM, actually work very well as design solutions and don't make the Edifice Complex cut.

Hollow spectacle is clearly what it says - spectacular but hollow, devoid of function; spin can't elevate it beyond that.

If Toronto is defined as a city by a lake, then the place where the city meets the lake is a defining point. There's no more appropriate place to showcase the modestly contextual architectural style that defines us than there. So Diamond is a perfect match. With a Clewes condo complex nearbye, and a new college building that's likely to be similarly polite, the context for our lovely new waterfront is being set rather nicely I think.
 
I don't see how something is 'hollow spectacle' when it's also perfectly practical.

Why don't we just build concrete brick boxes everywhere then?
 
Once again many people such as YYZER and SeanTrans are just assuming the worst. The truth is that the Design Review Panel minutes are not posted yet (not even from the November 14 meeting that created such concern), so we can't be sure what is what. I find this very odd.

The presentations on the web clearly show that only a couple of criticisms of the building were valid and other alleged "changes" were not true. The June rendering shows the loading docks as they are now and both the June and November renderings show "the egg". There was no "bait and switch" if you actually look at the renderings presented by WT or Diamond. The company only said that the interior of the building is under the control of Corus and that the egg or similar object will be presented later by the Corus architects. From what I can tell, a more angled roof and more transparent atrium are the only changes (ie changed back) in the current design and are therefore closer to the June rendering.

Most people are in favour of design review panels. Why we think that this panel is so great seems un-earned. Neither the Citizens of Toronto nor the proponent (TEDCO/Corus/Diamond) have been well served in this debate or debacle.

As time marches on, we'll see how many other buildings get built on the waterfront and which ones win awards.
 
Considering how well the Aura condo design review process apparently went - a less than stellar original design, by an architect not considered to be particularly front rank, yet tweaked and improved and everyone happy with the outcome - this Corus thing has been very odd, dragging on month after month.

The purpose of any peer review of creative work, no matter what field of design it is in, involves working with the designer to improve their work, not completely remaking it as some here want. If the design review process degenerates to that level, who would have confidence in it, or submit to it?
 
the Sydney Opera House, for instance, which is merely a faux Edifice Complex since folks can get into it but not enjoy acoustics that are particularly good once they're there - don't have. Naturally, not all high-fashion novelty shapes fall into even this category - some, like the ROM, actually work very well as design solutions and don't make the Edifice Complex cut.

Exactly! Why circumscribe the baseline options here to the false binary opposites of Sydney Opera House Spectacle vs Diamond Business Park minimalism? Both buildings fail: Sydney for its lack of functionality and Diamond for its underwhelming aesthetic. In this context it would be far more appropriate to be considering Sydney Opera House 'hollow' spectacle vs the ROM brand of 'meaningful' spectacle that you yourself concede manages to be functional as well.


If Toronto is defined as a city by a lake, then the place where the city meets the lake is a defining point. There's no more appropriate place to showcase the modestly contextual architectural style that defines us than there. So Diamond is a perfect match. With a Clewes condo complex nearbye, and a new college building that's likely to be similarly polite, the context for our lovely new waterfront is being set rather nicely I think.

I do not entirely disagree with you US in that the building by Clewes is beautiful. Besides, wouldn't it be completely silly to have a wall of 'starchitecture' lining the waterfront where if every building is spectacle then none is, and we end up looking like Dubai. That said, however, I do feel that people have an expectation here that there be at least 'one' signature landmark added to the mix, such that if we had our 'monument', so to speak, we would likely be delighted with, rather than frustrated by the 'polite' and tasteful design vocabulary being adopted along the waterfront...

In my opinion the whole Waterfront project has been handled wrong. The public's hungar for waterfront rejuvenation, a symbol of the city's unrealized potential, mirrors the City's aspirations of throwing off the 'Hogtown' image and emerging as an important modern North American urban centre. A grand gesture was needed to sate the public's appetite for this, the optics of which would then have cleared the way for condos and office buildings and other more prosaic yet 'tasteful' buildings along the waterfront, and people would no doubt then have been fairly pleased with the standard set for such buildings by Clewes et al. Instead, the process that has unfolded has only served to frustrate the public's aspirations, raising doubt about the emerging vision and suspicion of the process. This could have been avoided. The foot of Yonge at the Waterfront should have been set aside for a grand gesture that would have satisfied the public's hungar for spectacle, and satisfied the public's concerns that Waterfront rejuvenation would live up its expectations.

Is there really anything wrong with monuments or spectacle in small doses? As US says the waterfront is a 'defining' location in the city. It is a place that symbolizes what Toronto is and can be, and the possibilities afforded here are limitless. I imagine a grand waterfront plaza with spectacular fountains spilling into the lake and floodlit at night, along with a starchitect 'du jour'-designed public institution such as a Museum of Toronto, forming the backdrop for a monumental off-shore Harbour beacon around which boats could gather, allowing views all around to the city skyline and the Toronto islands. Oh well, I can dream...
 
Tewder: The redevelopment of the waterfront, which began with the planning of Harbour Square in the mid-1960s but gathered momentum in 1972 when Trudeau dangled an election goodie called "Harbourfront" in front of us, is itself a grand gesture. 35 years on, there's a huge amount of residential construction south of Front and along the harbour, with some office and entertainment/cultural buildings, parks etc. as well. Development plans for the portlands to the east are well under way. The unrealized potential you talk about is already being realized without a "grand gesture" building to kickstart any of it. Why would the construction of a corporate office building sate the supposed frustrations of an entire population?
 
That's a nice dodge.
The answer to your last question is: it can't. Because sometimes an uninspiringly ordinary building is just simply an uninspiringly ordinary building.

It's all very well and good that thirty years after a governmental grand gesture helped kick-start development, Harbourfront is becoming unevenly attractive and inhabitable. Pace has been slow, though - and the quality of architecture and planning, quite uneven. Sections of what has been built is even solidly disliked. It has taken another round of cosmetic surgery at the central harbourfront to bring it in line with what is just beginning to be largely planned, but built piecemeal.

Seeing us lag behind Europe's initiatives by ten to fifteen years, saddled with a generous helping of dull monolithic towers, frustrated by the slow pace of progress and suspicious of the motives-that-be behind financial deals regarding these areas of land, tired of political infighting, the people of Toronto want some high civic expectations met. What's wanted are some reassurances offered that here of all places, the city will rise to the occasion and provide something that's big on the delight, and not just offering commodity and firmness. Some buildings can sum up a city's sense of identity - others can advance it, and even improve it.
It's rare that any single building could sate everybody, though some can do it more significantly and thrillingly than others.
Setting up an opposition between non-rectinliear functionalism and variegated expressionism in contemporary architecture is specious. That went out the spandrel a long time ago.
The nature of function in buildings has been debated fiercely as a tenent since the theoretical solidification of academic modernism. It would eat up more posts than boredom is capable of caring about to debate it here: I'll say though, personally, my functionality includes pleasure and the regard for the civic realm. To press more on this point would be to argue about personal taste, which more than just about anything else in a forum is the height of irritatingly vainglorious nerd-ery to argue about.

What I'd rather see argued about on here is a generalized cultural bias that is hostile to extravagance. The lingering spectre of protestant dourness that has informed the foundation of our city from the grey shale up. Also, how same protestant basis fuels an easy alliance with the puritanism of functionalist modernism. Our unease with spectacle (however full), and luxe, frivolity, nonsense and play. Oh - and unorthodox notions of beauty to boot.
 

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