[trtcttc]

Edmonton LRT doesn't run on streets, and as for the LA Blue and Gold Lines, yes they are, especially the southern section of the Gold Line.

Pretty sure most of the cost and construction time is for the underground sections. Finch West is much more representative of an LRT and it’s construction time and cost is significantly lower

 

[NoahB]

My point is how many different big projects we are building - let alone planning. As impressive as REM is - as far as I know, it's the only major project underway in Montreal - with the next biggest being the Orange Line yard expansion north of Cote Vertu, and perhaps the new pedestrian tunnel at Vendome station - or have they both finished now? Did I forget something (other than the "REM East" that's not finalized yet ... and perhaps the 5 station Blue line extension is finally a go? - I can't keep track after 40 years of announcements).

They literally had it on the Metro map (to Montreal Nord!) in the early 1980s, with the same black dots as the Orange Line where they put on white circular stickers as new stations opened!

Piecemeal yes, ad hoc no (well not much). Like anything else, it will never be done - they are still opening Tube stations in London after 150 years! But much of the work to get 5 of the 7 lines to RER should be finished within the decade. My understanding is they intend to announce the main contract before the election; the RFP is completed, and I've heard rumblings they are negotiating with their first choice.

A 60-metre long (expandable to 90-metre) tram? Is the Edmonton LRT also just a tram? What about the Gold and Blue lines in Los Angeles?

Mostly because of the complexities of assigning Waterfront Toronto money. It's seems a bit biased though to ignore that TTC has funded the major expansions of Queens Quay and Union underground streetcar platforms.

I'm not sure where you are hearing that. Not only is it in the latest TTC capital budget - it's (too my surprise!) funded - along with the expansion of King station.

The current dozen or so under-construction projects - yes (though the work at College, at least, exceeds what is required for either accessibility or second exit).

I stand corrected on the St. George expansion.

My point is how many different big projects we are building - let alone planning. As impressive as REM is - as far as I know, it's the only major project underway in Montreal - with the next biggest being the Orange Line yard expansion north of Cote Vertu, and perhaps the new pedestrian tunnel at Vendome station - or have they both finished now? Did I forget something (other than the "REM East" that's not finalized yet ... and perhaps the 5 station Blue line extension is finally a go? - I can't keep track after 40 years of announcements).

They literally had it on the Metro map (to Montreal Nord!) in the early 1980s, with the same black dots as the Orange Line where they put on white circular stickers as new stations opened!

Having it on the map only shows their confidence but necessarily that it would happen. And it did not happen. The 5 station expansion of the blue line was a 'go' until they failed to buy the parking lot of a mall at the end of the line and cost ballooned from 4.5 to 6B. (last I've heard)

Piecemeal yes, ad hoc no (well not much). Like anything else, it will never be done - they are still opening Tube stations in London after 150 years! But much of the work to get 5 of the 7 lines to RER should be finished within the decade. My understanding is they intend to announce the main contract before the election; the RFP is completed, and I've heard rumblings they are negotiating with their first choice.

That is fair enough. My point is that it will take them decades from the Dalton McGuinty 2011 election promise to completion in the late 2020s. I guess the Lakesure line counts as an early win... But we got 6 story parking lots added to stations. Montreal got platform screen doors and AC.

A 60-metre long (expandable to 90-metre) tram? Is the Edmonton LRT also just a tram? What about the Gold and Blue lines in Los Angeles?

It's true that most trams are single-car trains that and are shorter. But that won't matter when the passenger is waiting for left car signals and car crashes to clear up.
Also, fun to know: TTC tested a 6-car CLRV train in 1982, that's 91m long.

Mostly because of the complexities of assigning Waterfront Toronto money. It's seems a bit biased though to ignore that TTC has funded the major expansions of Queens Quay and Union underground streetcar platforms.

Fair enough.

 

[superelevation]

Pretty sure most of the cost and construction time is for the underground sections. Finch West is much more representative of an LRT and it’s construction time and cost is significantly lower

Finch West is still VERY expensive

 

[ARG1]

Pretty sure most of the cost and construction time is for the underground sections. Finch West is much more representative of an LRT and it’s construction time and cost is significantly lower

Well I didn't really bring up costs at all in that post, it was more of a terminology thing. The line between LRT/Streetcar/Tram is incredibly blurry. LRT specifically has a problem since because it refers to a type of vehicle rather than a type of service - its name can mean literally anything from a light metro (Ottawa) to a literal streetcar (Finch West). As far as I'm concerned, the LRT lines we're building in the GTHA are basically streetcars, and with the exception of the Crosstown are basically no different from say the 510 Spadina or the 512 St. Clair

 

[Deadpool X]

I agree. A grade separated LRT line is like a metro and at grade line in the middle of the road is no better than streetcar.

 

[NoahB]

Trains are just a bunch of components and features. add them all together or strip some of them off and you get to call them different things. Things like local norms and history affect it too.

So talking about what to call it is less useful than what component it has and how it operates.

Remember when the 510 Spadina was actually called the Harbourfront LRT? (I dont, wasn't born yet).
Apparently, people imagined LRTs being like the RT and Skytrain so the term was dropped.

 

[nfitz]

Edmonton LRT doesn't run on streets

Not all of it - but how is this radically different than the surface sections of the Eglinton line?

... and as for the LA Blue and Gold Lines, yes they are, especially the southern section of the Gold Line.

I'm not sure why you need to invent new terminology. I guess if the LA lines (and Edmonton) are trams, then Dundas is a streetcar.

 

[nfitz]

My point is that it will take them decades from the Dalton McGuinty 2011 election promise to completion in the late 2020s.

As opposed the the 1960s (and 1970s, and 1980s) Jean Drapeau election promises? It's not like he wasn't around to keep them! (he probably made some 1950s promises too that I don't remember!)

Though to be fair, he did deliver an awful lot - and they haven't started digging any new Metro stations in Montreal since he retired (other than the 3rd platform at Henri-Bourassa)[/QUOTE]

 

[ARG1]

Not all of it - but how is this radically different than the surface sections of the Eglinton line?
View attachment 373311

Everytime I am reminded that the Metro Line exists - I get depressed.

However, what this picture is missing is the fact that this is separated by boom gates. Left turns are banned - cars driving along 105 St can't cross the tracks, and the cross street, well has boom gates that prevent access, meaning that it is absolute priority for the LRT - no having to ever stop at Red lights, or rely on some unreliable TSP. It is still trying to keep to a more Regional Rail/S-Bahn style design seen on the rest of the Capital Line (even if a lot of the design choices were very stupid).

I'm not sure why you need to invent new terminology. I guess if the LA lines (and Edmonton) are trams, then Dundas is a streetcar.

Well... yes?

Although I can't say why you're saying I'm inventing new terminology. The term "LRT" was literally only created to sell streetcars to a public that in the 80s saw streetcars as this old fashioned and outdated mode - to make it seem "new" and "hip". It was literally creating new terminology for the sake of rebranding.

 

[nfitz]

Everytime I am reminded that the Metro Line exists - I get depressed.

However, what this picture is missing is the fact that this is separated by boom gates. Left turns are banned - cars driving along 105 St can't cross the tracks, and the cross street, well has boom gates that prevent access, meaning that it is absolute priority for the LRT - no having to ever stop at Red lights, or rely on some unreliable TSP. It is still trying to keep to a more Regional Rail/S-Bahn style design seen on the rest of the Capital Line (even if a lot of the design choices were very stupid).

True - and similar on Eglinton would help.

 

[trtcttc]

Is the spacing between stops on surface section of Eglington longer than the Spadina/St.Clair Streetcar? My gripe with Toronto streetcar is just how slow it is with so many stops like the King, Richmond, Queen stops on Spadina or the two stops on King by Lamport Stadium that is literally less than 30m. I think the TTC doesn’t put enough emphasis on the speed of the service by removing stops and increasing speed when safe (I think Steve Munro did an analysis on St.Clair that found the TTC saved almost no journey time even though they separated the streetcar).

Link: https://stevemunro.ca/2021/08/13/travel-times-on-512-st-clair/ and for Spadina https://stevemunro.ca/2021/08/11/how-slow-is-the-510-spadina-car/

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Is the spacing between stops on surface section of Eglington longer than the Spadina/St.Clair Streetcar? My gripe with Toronto streetcar is just how slow it is with so many stops like the King, Richmond, Queen stops on Spadina or the two stops on King by Lamport Stadium that is literally less than 30m. I think the TTC doesn’t put enough emphasis on the speed of the service by removing stops and increasing speed when safe (I think Steve Munro did an analysis on St.Clair that found the TTC saved almost no journey time even though they separated the streetcar).

Link: https://stevemunro.ca/2021/08/13/travel-times-on-512-st-clair/ and for Spadina https://stevemunro.ca/2021/08/11/how-slow-is-the-510-spadina-car/

TTC wanted to space out the stops on the 512 ST. CLAIR, but the NIMBYs wouldn't have it. Ditto with the 510 SPADINA, the NIMBYs again. The TTC has been removing closely spaced bus and streetcar stops, but the opposition from the NIMBYs can be a battle.

 

[Tuck]

I agree. A grade separated LRT line is like a metro and at grade line in the middle of the road is no better than streetcar.

There are plenty of cities out there where this is flat out untrue.

Toronto's implementation of LRT may leave a lot to be desired, but that says more about us than it does about LRT.

(That said I still think Eglinton east and west should have been elevated)

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The original plans for the Crosstown did NOT include the Leslie Station/stop. Then the NIMBYs made it a battle to include it. The bad part was that instead of a south side stop, they put the (renamed) Sunnybrook Park stop in the middle of the road and intersection.

From link, dated February 12, 2013...

Eglinton-Crosstown LRT: Leasiders fight to put Leslie stop back on the map​

Condo dweller Maureen Dunn has a message for her Don Valley West MPP, Premier Kathleen Wynne: Put Leslie back on the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT.

The stop is being eliminated as part of a change to the LRT construction plan. Disappointed condo-dwellers at Leslie and Eglinton and, nearby Leaside are vowing to fight the decision by Metrolinx.

Theirs is among the first major community complaints to surface as Metrolinx proceeds over the next eight years with construction of the $6.7 billion provincially funded LRT.

The provincial transportation agency has a team dedicated to community information and feedback. But some city officials say the dispute is exactly what they feared when Toronto and the TTC signed a master agreement giving Metrolinx the final say on the project.

In Dunn’s 400-unit building, 300 residents have signed a petition, asking to have the Leslie stop reinstated. So far, it’s made no difference.

Under the new construction plan Metrolinx wants to lengthen the LRT tunnel. Stopping at Leslie would mean building another underground station — at a cost of $80 to $100 million — in a location expected to attract relatively few riders.

The change, which has to be approved by the province, is a disappointment to residents like Dunn. Some bought their homes believing they would be steps from a transit stop.

“I’d have been really happy to jump on that LRT that avoids the traffic,” said Dunn, who drives but would prefer to take transit when she goes downtown to the opera. The bus trip takes too long because it gets snarled in traffic, she said.

Originally the Crosstown was supposed to run mostly underground from Black Creek Dr. in the west to about Laird Dr. in the east. Leslie would have been a relatively inexpensive surface stop, costing about $3 million.

But in December, Metrolinx announced it was looking at a new route to avoid issues with traffic, contaminated soil and the construction of a residential development near Brentcliffe Rd.

Metrolinx’s alternative — tunneling farther east to Don Mills Rd. — meant eliminating the stops at Leslie and Ferrand Dr.

Last month, to the relief of residents of Flemingdon and Thorncliffe Park, it announced it had restored the Ferrand surface stop.

But not Leslie.

“It would be the lowest ridership and most expensive station on the line,” said Jamie Robinson of community relations and communications for the Toronto Transit Project at Metrolinx.

Apart from the condos and a car dealership, the Leslie intersection is dominated by parkland. “When you look at the city’s official plan, there really is no substantial increase in residential development or ridership,” said Robinson.

Geoff Kettel, of the Leaside Property Owners’ Association, says the station could enhance park access. “(It) would actually serve the Don Valley Trail. The city wants to increase access to its trails for walking, biking and commuting. It would have been ideally situated to provide access to the Serena Gundy Park. To say there’s nobody living there might discount some potential usage,” he said.

The issue is precisely what Councillor Gord Perks (Ward 14, Parkdale-High Park) said he feared when the city signed over control of the new line to Metrolinx, an unelected body.

“The city can raise the issue, but at the end of the day they just provide advice. The province is required to hear our objection. They’re simply not required to implement it,” he said.

“The purpose of transit isn’t just to generate ridership. It’s to create a transit lifestyle in more neighbourhoods,” said Perks.

Residents haven’t given up. “There may be some time for sober second thoughts. Why couldn’t there be a viaduct across the valley so the LRT would pop out at the original place and go underground at Don Mills? It would allow the opportunity for a Leslie station either now or at some time in the future,” said Kettel.

Metrolinx doesn’t expect all the residents will change their mind, despite Metrolinx’s reinstatement of Ferrand and its extension of community consultations in the east end, said Robinson.

There is still time, he said, for people to speak with their city councillors and participate in the provincial environmental assessment process, he said, adding that Metrolinx doesn’t anticipate that any more stops will be eliminated.

 

[TRONto]

Is the spacing between stops on surface section of Eglington longer than the Spadina/St.Clair Streetcar? My gripe with Toronto streetcar is just how slow it is with so many stops like the King, Richmond, Queen stops on Spadina or the two stops on King by Lamport Stadium that is literally less than 30m. I think the TTC doesn’t put enough emphasis on the speed of the service by removing stops and increasing speed when safe (I think Steve Munro did an analysis on St.Clair that found the TTC saved almost no journey time even though they separated the streetcar).

Link: https://stevemunro.ca/2021/08/13/travel-times-on-512-st-clair/ and for Spadina https://stevemunro.ca/2021/08/11/how-slow-is-the-510-spadina-car/

The TTC has been working to remove stops across the network. This work has been done over the past few years (you can find it on Steve Munro's site)
You are right about the lack of time saving with the St Clair and Spadina ROW. Too many stops +those left turns!