Admiral Beez
Superstar
Given the expense and timeframe, did we save any money or time by not making it a regular subway?
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
JSF-1
Active Member
In the long run yes. Given the future projected ridership of Line 5 is something like 5k passengers per hour, in no world should it be a subway since that would be an even lower passenger count than Line 4 but around the same as Line 3 I believe. Even Light-Metro is really stretching it as far as roi is concerned. A full metro like Line 4 would be an absolute non-starter and something like the OL may even be to much for the line. We would either be building the OL with shorter trains (4 cars instead of 6) effectively just building another SRT. As well we all know that if the EC was going to be a subway the boneheads on City Council and/or the Province would insist everything east of Leslie be underground which would drive the cost through the roof. If you don't believe me see the west extension.
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MrGoose
Active Member
We did not save any money or time.
Even if @JSF-1 and the planners are right, that the Ellington Crosstown will never exceed 5k passengers per direction per hour, we still could have saved money (either in construction costs or future improvement costs) by using high floor subway trains instead of low floor streetcars.
The tunnels are the same diameter as subway tunnels and high floor trains provide more capacity per unit train because you don’t have space being taken up by wheel wells and motors.
So to provide the same amount of capacity you could have made smaller stations (saving money on construction costs) or have made the same sized stations with the ability to easily expand capacity in the future (by simply adding more train cars)
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Line 5 tunnels are actually bigger than the subway tunnels to accommodate catenary.
crs1026
Superstar
I don't have data or knowledge to project ridership, but intuitively I'm still fearing that the line will become a heavily used route, and the 3-tram format will be limiting. Time will tell..... it would be a nice problem to have.
- Paul
- Paul
Voltz
Senior Member
If buses can handle the ridership now, then the increase will have to be substantial to overwhelm underground trains. And with several transfer points to other rapid transit lines, there won't be as much overlap among different groups of riders.
ARG1
Senior Member
The thing is the ridership won't just consist of people who live on Eglinton. It will also consistent of people from neighbouring streets coming up to use the new line as well. Say you live at VP and Lawrence, or even VP and Ellesmere. Whereas previously you likely took the Ellesmere/Lawrence busses to reach Yonge St to then transfer to the subway, now you're more likely to take the VP bus down to Eglinton, then transfer to Line 5 to make use of the faster infrastructure. So in reality, you're not "just" accounting for the Eglinton Ridership, you're accounting for that plus any major nearby bus route that will make use of the strong area of attraction that Eglinton now has.
crs1026
Superstar
I just wonder how much density the forecasts assumed and are they still valid. Eglinton will be a gamechanger in many ways in terms of cross city travel... and the whole corridor is clearly about to see lots of development.
If it works, I'm happy - but I would say there is more risk of having underestimated demand than of having overestimated it.
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
It would be a surprising problem to have. Don't forget that each car is 30-metres long, while the traditional subway lines only have 23-m cars. Which makes the train about the same length as a Line 4 train. Line 4 opened with trains every 6-minutes at rush hour. Which means they easily triple the capacity by just running more frequent trains. Perhaps quadruple, by activating the already constructed middle platform at Sheppard-Yonge.
But also the stations are currently finished for 4-car trains, but they were built for 6-car trains, with easily removable temporary walls blocking off the rest of the station. Which means ultimately they can run 6 times the capacity. And yet 20 years later, they haven't had to do anything. The ridership predictions including extensions to Sheppard West and McCowan don't even come close to doubling demand - let alone sextuple it.
Eglinton will be fine for decades to come - the original modelling for demand from Weston (or at least from Jane) to Pearson was absurdly low; and the 5,000 estimated peak hour ridership was based on the line extending to Pearson, 20 years after opening. It also didn't consider either Finch West or the Ontario Line getting to Pearson, which will likely reduce Line 5 demand. I'd be interested to see more recent modelling!
If Line 5 really does ever have capacity problems, the answer is more lines.
ShonTron
Moderator
Comparisons between low-floor LRVs and high-floor subway cars should always be made cautiously. The subway cars have much better throughput and more usable space.
nfitz
Superstar
True - but we are many years away from being near capacity. By then we'd be on a future generation of vehicle.
I'd hope by then, they could procure some kind of double-ended 90-metre long train, with connected cars, more doors, and improved circulation.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The 32A Eglinton West bus to Renforth Station has a headway of about every 12 minutes (allegedly). Most passengers today would be heading south towards Line 2, because of the traffic congestion (caused by single-occupant autos) and remaining construction.
With the opening of Line 5 this year (allegedly), there will likely be an increase in passenger loads on the 32 (between Renforth Station and Mt. Dennis Station. Will it be every 5 minutes, like they expect Line 5 to be? Will they use articulated buses on the 32 and leave the headway at every 10 minutes?
Subject to change, of course.
With the opening of Line 5 this year (allegedly), there will likely be an increase in passenger loads on the 32 (between Renforth Station and Mt. Dennis Station. Will it be every 5 minutes, like they expect Line 5 to be? Will they use articulated buses on the 32 and leave the headway at every 10 minutes?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
What about the street level rail, like east of Victoria Park? We couldn't run a full subway up the centre of Eglinton. Instead we’d need to run underground the whole length. What does that do to cost and time?
MrGoose
Active Member
Just elevate the East. We have the ROW carved out already.
Cut out some of the really closely spaced stations.
T3G
Senior Member
Of course, you leave out a critical point in this argument: the LRT is too far along to just change the types of vehicles used without a significant price tag associated with it.
It's done! It's over! Eglinton will be an LRT and that is set in stone. Unless you have a time machine and can go back to when the project was first proposed, all of these pie in the sky fantasies are pointless thought exercises. Try to come up with ways to make maximum use of what we have.