Islington Express Bus said:
I wonder if we could have saved ourselves a boatload of money by including this short tunnel as part of the original Eglinton project.
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Yes, and an even bigger boatload would have been saved if Dalton hadn't cancelled the entire west extension on the surface, leading to Ford putting it underground.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Yes, and an even bigger boatload would have been saved if Dalton hadn't cancelled the entire west extension on the surface, leading to Ford putting it underground.

- Paul
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Even more money potentially could have been saved if the Rae/Harris fiasco didn't stop the Eglinton West subway too.

But thats politics for ya.
 
robmausser said:
Even more money potentially could have been saved if the Rae/Harris fiasco didn't stop the Eglinton West subway too.

But thats politics for ya.
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We could have also saved the sunk cost at Eglington West along with the and extensive Crosstown work to build Cedarvale station if Rae hadn't changed the Busway to a Subway, but that's politics for ya.
 
robmausser said:
Even more money potentially could have been saved if the Rae/Harris fiasco didn't stop the Eglinton West subway too.

But thats politics for ya.
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Honestly I question that. The line would've been incredibly underused for a good chunk of its life after opening, and I'm pretty sure with the amount of money that would've been needed to operate and maintain the line in comparison to how much revenue it generated would've probably saved almost nothing if not costed more.
 
ARG1 said:
Honestly I question that. The line would've been incredibly underused for a good chunk of its life after opening, and I'm pretty sure with the amount of money that would've been needed to operate and maintain the line in comparison to how much revenue it generated would've probably saved almost nothing if not costed more.
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Well, had the subway been there for the past 20 years, the impact on development would have been dramatic. And many people would have shifted their travel as a result.

Whether that would have showed up in ridership is hard to say, but the impact on the city would have been hugely positive. We have paid a huge opportunity cost by not having higher order transit on Eglinton sooner - that more than offsets whatever the comparison in construction price may be.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Well, had the subway been there for the past 20 years, the impact on development would have been dramatic. And many people would have shifted their travel as a result.

Whether that would have showed up in ridership is hard to say, but the impact on the city would have been hugely positive. We have paid a huge opportunity cost by not having higher order transit on Eglinton sooner - that more than offsets whatever the comparison in construction price may be.

- Paul
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My concern is as such, because while I agree that driving density is a strong hypothetical use case for subway construction (a talking point I often parrot), I am looking at this through 20/20 hindsight and through knowing the politics of the 2000s. Due to amalgamation and the shifting priority of the city council, Sheppard never got the density it needed to sustain a subway network, nor did it ever get the necessary extensions to make it a reasonable line. It was built, had poor ridership, then we spent 15 years arguing over whether or not it should be extended as an LRT or a Subway.

Eglinton would've been the same story but even worse. Eglinton back then was a lower ridership corridor than Sheppard, and unlike Sheppard which at least terminated at a mall, Eglinton West terminated in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore iirc, Eglinton never even had a planned extension to Yonge, from the beginning it was planned exclusively as a line that went from Allen Road to the airport, so we can basically forget about serving Midtown Toronto and Golden Mile. Best Case Scenerio, we would've built a linear transfer LRT to the airport to the west. Worst case scenerio, we did nothing with the line as we repeat the history of the Sheppard Line as a stub to nowhere, and construction on theoretical east and west extension maybe would've started in the last couple of years. I'd honestly take the poorly thought out LRT we have now vs any of those alternate universe Eglintons.
 
ARG1 said:
My concern is as such, because while I agree that driving density is a strong hypothetical use case for subway construction (a talking point I often parrot), I am looking at this through 20/20 hindsight and through knowing the politics of the 2000s. Due to amalgamation and the shifting priority of the city council, Sheppard never got the density it needed to sustain a subway network, nor did it ever get the necessary extensions to make it a reasonable line. It was built, had poor ridership, then we spent 15 years arguing over whether or not it should be extended as an LRT or a Subway.

Eglinton would've been the same story but even worse. Eglinton back then was a lower ridership corridor than Sheppard, and unlike Sheppard which at least terminated at a mall, Eglinton West terminated in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore iirc, Eglinton never even had a planned extension to Yonge, from the beginning it was planned exclusively as a line that went from Allen Road to the airport, so we can basically forget about serving Midtown Toronto and Golden Mile. Best Case Scenerio, we would've built a linear transfer LRT to the airport to the west. Worst case scenerio, we did nothing with the line as we repeat the history of the Sheppard Line as a stub to nowhere, and construction on theoretical east and west extension maybe would've started in the last couple of years. I'd honestly take the poorly thought out LRT we have now vs any of those alternate universe Eglintons.
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You are correct the Eglinton West Subway had no proposal to be extended to Yonge Street at the time it was thought up, and this carried over to the Rae days when the line was truncated. The line had it been built in either form (to Pearson or Mount Dennis) would have been completely useless to residents in the cities east end and would have had no connection to Yonge Street where the bulk of Line 1's riders are. On top of that Eglinton Station at the time was also a major terminus for bus routes coming from East York and Scarborough so they would have had no access to the line. You can argue this wouldn't have been that much of an issue if it was just going to the empty fields around Mount Dennis, but had the line gone all the way to the Airport the entire eastern half of Toronto would have no access to the line and thus no easy access to the Airport. Not having the line start at Yonge Street was a hilariously short sighted idea and it was made even worse when there was no plan to even extend it to Yonge Street as part of Network 2011.

And of course all of this is on top of the fact that the Eglinton West Subway wasn't even supposed to be built until 2011, being the last line of the Network 2011 proposals; but because York and Etobicoke put up a major stink, Metro had to push construction of the line up by 20 years and truncated both it and the Sheppard Line to afford it, on top of leaving the DRL on the cutting room floor after the Peterson Liberals cut it.
 
Any update on Eglinton Crosstown Wes tExtension — Stations, Rail and Systems RFQ? It is supposed to be issued by next month. Just curious where it stands.
 
Why do people talk about the Eglinton West subway proposal as if it couldn't have been extended to Yonge and beyond? It very well could have been, and would have made it much more useful.

I'm sure in the 90's and early 2000's, no one expected the Bloor line to be extended into Scarborough City Centre. Everyone was content with the Scarborough RT.

We could build a subway running up Jane and it wouldn't suffer the same fate as Sheppard due to the new housing and zoning policies that are in place today. Infact, with the governments new emphasis on TOD and density, we should focus on subways and stop building these slow plodding LRTs.
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Bojaxs said:
Why do people talk about the Eglinton West subway proposal as if it couldn't have been extended to Yonge and beyond? It very well could have been, and would have made it much more useful.

I'm sure in the 90's and early 2000's, no one expected the Bloor line to be extended into Scarborough City Centre. Everyone was content with the Scarborough RT.

We could build a subway running up Jane and it wouldn't suffer the same fate as Sheppard due to the new housing and zoning policies that are in place today. Infact, with the governments new emphasis on TOD and density, we should focus on subways and stop building these slow plodding LRTs.
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Its not that it couldn't, but rather that there were no plans to, and thus acting as if it would've happened is just stepping into Fantasy Land.
 
Amare said:
I believe that section is going to be mined, so once these TBM's hit the Scarlett portal that will be it for them.
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I always wondered if they are returned to manufacturer for refurbishing and reuse or they basically a disposable device? Wouldn’t it save ML money to use them on the Ontario Line or the Yonge Extension?
 
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