Blink3602
New Member
Another day and no workers doing any work on the guideway. I wish my boss would give me a week vacation too. First track in operation by 2024!
- Thread starter vic
- Start date
dowlingm
Senior Member
I think the distinction usually drawn is that 3rd rail is now usually only implemented in expansions / changes to existing 3rd rail mainline unsegregated systems such as the ones that Dan lists. Barrie would not classify as such. There’s a reason new electrification projects like Denver‘s go overhead high voltage AC. It is unfortunate that the structures required tend to be visually intrusive but that as noted is easier to accept in an existing rail/light industrial landscape - it is one of the reasons however that SmartTrack Eglinton West seemed to me dead on arrival.
Voltz
Senior Member
Construction sites typically shut down over the holidays.
smallspy
Senior Member
KevinT
Active Member
Third rail doesn't support high voltage (25 kV) like overhead electrification does, I think it tops out at 1.5 kV. The TTC uses 600V, and the new LRT projects use 750V.
Lower voltages require more traction power stations that are much closer together, completely unsuitable for the longer distances GO travels.
I believe the third rail systems that other long haul locomotives use in stations are supplementary, on the output side of the locomotive's overhead step down transformer. It works in the stations, but on the long hauls between stations they still use a higher voltage overhead system.
Lower voltages require more traction power stations that are much closer together, completely unsuitable for the longer distances GO travels.
I believe the third rail systems that other long haul locomotives use in stations are supplementary, on the output side of the locomotive's overhead step down transformer. It works in the stations, but on the long hauls between stations they still use a higher voltage overhead system.
Blink3602
New Member
Finally they are back to work but only about less than 15-20 guys on the site now. Working pace seems fairly slow. Of course why would they rush if they can just stretch the job as far as possible and have zero incentive for finishing on time.
Toronto construction for you.
Toronto construction for you.
drum118
Superstar
How many workers should be on this project today??
Do you know what has to happen first for other things to take place??
What is the weather like and are you prepared to work in this weather???
Sorry to say it, but that nice warm place with no construction or noise taking place is an NIMBY person thinking. Don't like what going on, you can always move to another area.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
It's worth noting that all electrification systems have gaps in power, including overhead catenary. This is necessary in order to isolate different electrical systems from each other. For example when entering or exiting the HSL Zuid here in the Netherlands, trains need to coast for a several hundred metres with the pantographs down in order to isolate the 25kV AC system of the high speed line from the 1.5kV DC system of the conventional network. There are also de-energized segments called "fasescheiding" in Dutch (literally translates to "phase separation", not sure if that's the correct English term) which isolates various segments of 25kV AC power from each other. Trains can pass through with their pantographs up, but need to coast.
Operators know that they need to pass through these unpowered areas with sufficient speed to coast all the way through.
AHK
Senior Member
While in theory third rail may be a technical possibility, and has been deployed in other jurisdictions where there are existing level crossings, as a practical matter a couple of other considerations. First of all, the typical ground level right of way for roadways in Ontario would be a lot wider than the typical country laneway or secondary road level crossings with third rail electrification. I would also be fairly confident that the North Eastern United States examples cited would be legacy, and modern build.
The risk of an electric locomotive getting stalled at a spot where there is a gap in the third rail increases with the width of the crossing - and a particular risk at points with traffic creating risk of collisions. A further consideration is that of securing reasonable access control / safety environment for a live third rail system in the areas of the level crossing. Subway systems with third rail are generally reasonably secured from casual access to the third rail area. Of course anyone determined to gain access is able to do so, but casual wandering around into the live area would be very much constrained. With third rail electrification in the area of level crossing road right of ways would create an increased degree of risk for unauthorized access.
Understand the need for section isolation gaps - however lay observation is that the general practice would be for the operator to just sail right through without cutting power and coasting. Certainly, the TTC streetcars do not coast through the overhead section isolators here - as can be seen by the sparking created by the pantograph that takes place when they cross one. Much more noticeable with pantograph operation than with the legacy pick up poles.
So while in theory, the roadway gaps in the pick up rail for third rail electrification in themselves would not be an absolute disqualifier for their use, they would present practical problems and operational risks that in today's age would mitigate strongly against their implementation,.
superelevation
Active Member
Lower voltages are used on mainline networks all over, as mentioned by RE - the Netherlands uses, but so do places like Italy, parts of Australia, Japan etc etc
While elevated wire gantries can be unattractive like all things a lot is in the implementation. The OHL on Eglinton is big and bulky and looks far worse than on many comparable systems in Europe. The design matters!
FWIW, OL and REM will have elevated with OH wire, and Calgary and Edmonton already do - so even within Canada it's not like it's unheard of.
crs1026
Superstar
In the context of this thread (ie Davenport, and GO electrification) - I have a feeling this discussion is moot.
I would bet the electrification we see on this line looks a lot like what what was proposed in the GO Electrification EA.... because if it doesn't, there is no environmental approval. And we don't want to revisit the EA... the time for proposing some other option has passed.
But I agree, the Crosstown gantries are unnecessarily awful. Hopefully what goes up on the guideway is less severe.
- Paul
I would bet the electrification we see on this line looks a lot like what what was proposed in the GO Electrification EA.... because if it doesn't, there is no environmental approval. And we don't want to revisit the EA... the time for proposing some other option has passed.
But I agree, the Crosstown gantries are unnecessarily awful. Hopefully what goes up on the guideway is less severe.
- Paul
cplchanb
Senior Member
crossing our fingers that that DB will bring specialists from Europe to help design proper gantries that also are as slimmed down as possible.
drum118
Superstar
Agree with the Crosstown look for the OS as its heavier than the Finch Line as well other systems I have seen in NA or Europe. Will have to wait tell Q2 or Q3 to see what the OS will look like for Hurontario this year. The OMSF will see the OS first since the new 44 cars are to start arriving late this year.
DB will bring in people to design GO OS system correctly and cheaper than some of the systems I have seen in Europe not under DB control.
Even some of TTC OS is over kill compared to Europe.
rbt
Senior Member
I'm not as convinced that the GO OCS will be as light-weight as found in much of Europe. The ice-storms that hit parts of Metrolinx's service area (looking at you Barrie) can be fairly significant compared to what western europe gets, which can be made worse by an immediate deep freeze which prevents the ice from melting for several days while strong winds pummel the structure.
I expect they'll reference power line standards in Ontario and Quebec for extreme weather loads while engineering the OCS. Those weather loads were learned the hard way, and in the last few decades.
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