Transportfan
Senior Member
Hurontario St. goes to Collingwood, not Owen Sound. So do most people although many driving to the Collingwood/Wasaga area take Airport Rd.
Hurontario St. goes to Collingwood, not Owen Sound. So do most people although many driving to the Collingwood/Wasaga area take Airport Rd.
doady
Senior Member
Mississauga has continuously built high-density throughout its history. Most of the high-rises in MCC are from the 80s and 90s for example.
If anything, high-density development in Mississauga actually slowed down after it became built-out.
Look at the list of high-rises built list on SSP: only a small proportion of Mississauga's high-rises were built in the new millenium.
High-rises (12 storeys or greater) constructed in Mississauga per decade:
The 1960s: 14
The 1970s: 73
The 1980s: 50
The 1990s: 46
The 2000s: 35
The 2010s: 21
Total: 260
(not all buildings have dates; the missing dates are for the older buildings)
Mississauga has more high-rise buildings than Seattle, Denver, Baltimore, Hamilton, etc.
In comparison, Brampton currently has 66 high-rises. Brampton has less high-rises now than Mississauga did in the 70s.
That's why we are even discussing LRT in the first place. If high-density was just a recent thing in Mississauga, this thread would not even exist.
Brampton is growing at around the same rate now as Mississauga did in the 90s, but only 5 high-rises have been constructed in Brampton in the past 10 years, compared to 46 high-rises constructed in Mississauga in the 90s.
As I said, it is different culture. People move to Brampton for the lower prices and bigger houses. The new subdivisions in Brampton have very little multi-family housing. Other than Toronto, people who want high-density living go live in Mississauga, or Oakville, Burlington, Richmond Hill, Markham - all those places have more high-density development than Brampton.
That's why I think this LRT is difficult for Brampton. Main is not an ideal corridor for LRT, but people did not move to Brampton for high density living to being with, as you can see from the relative lack of high-density development.
LRT will mean major change for Brampton, but for Mississauga it will just be more of the same.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Timing matters greatly.
In the 70s/80s and a bit into the early nineties, the majority of high rise residential buildings were purpose built rentals.....so the development industry built them spec to meet the growing population need.
Since the 90s, the growth in high rises (throughout the GTA) has been for sale condominium buildings. This does two things, one it slows down the development process because (depending on the project) developers have to find buyers before they build....and, more importantly, the buying public decides the fate of any proposed building. All over Brampton are sites that have been proposed, approved and (to some degree) launched....but failed through lack of sales.
Brampton's intensification is happening on the back of the townhouse and, to a lesser extent, stacked townhouse market......the condo buyers are buying elsewhere for some pretty easy to understand reasons.
There is no anti-intensification atittude at city hall and among staff....in a bizarre way it is old school intensification because nearly all the highrises built in the last 10 years have been purpose built rental buildings.....not many communities can say that.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
there is no opposition at Brampton city hall, but neither is there really any urgency to stop the sprawl machine that the city has become. They have happily designated the ENTIRE municipality that isn't legislated as greenbelt to their urban area, and developers are appropriately eating it up. There is a fault somewhere in the chain of command that is causing Brampton to not be able to build any condo buildings, while nearly every single GTA municipality manages to sell them easily. Brampton currently has no multi family condominium infill buildings in construction or likely to start any time soon (that I am aware of), while every single other municipality in the GTA has one going up right now that I can think of, other than Newmarket and East Gwillumbury, both of which are much smaller municipalities with much lower growth pressures. It can't be entirely market forces at work here, something is up in the Brampton planning offices. Where exactly the fault lays, I'm not sure. It may be intensification policies, it may be urban area land allocation calculations, it may be provincial growth targets set unrealistically high, I don't know. But Brampton is sprawling at record rates and there has to be a reason for it.
As for the LRT, it likely will spur redevelopment. There is a lot of land sitting around Hurontario and Steeles that is just waiting for the LRT to come in.
As for the LRT, it likely will spur redevelopment. There is a lot of land sitting around Hurontario and Steeles that is just waiting for the LRT to come in.
TOareaFan
Superstar
What would you have the city do to change the market? The only condo building that the city has fought (to the best of my knowledge) is the controversial Heart Lake area project.
Setting that aside....they have approved multiple projects......and when they go to market there is virtually zero market acceptance. Even the few that have gone up (Inzolla's project, the Kennedy/Queen project by Mattamy and the Renaissance on George St.) experienced much slower absorption than the GTA market. The condo market in Brampton is very weak even with the limited supply that there is.
What that leads to is depressed prices....when condos in a market sell for +/-$300psf....and construction costs are closer to (or over) $400psf you just aren't going to see much (any?) construction....
....so, what the city has seen is 3 new private sector purpose built rental buildings and a few not for profit rental buildings....that is where our new high-rises have come from.
Even the controversial Heart Lake OMB fight was, as it turns out, pointless.....because in the, what, 2+ years since the compromise was finally reached there has been absolutely no movement to develop....because there is no market for the condos at the prices you would have to charge to cover your costs and make some money.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I would argue that is because of the sprawl itself. The sprawl makes townhomes cheap by constantly meeting all demand for the supply of towns and singles. nobody buys a condo because for the same price you can get a townhouse thats twice as big. Why are townhouses and single family homes relatively affordable in Brampton? because the policies allow for huge amounts of new inventory to come online every year meeting all new housing stock demands in the city.
It was that way across the entire GTA 10 years ago. Condos were barely a blip on the radar, especially outside of downtown. The Growth Plan came in, started forcing municipalities to restrict their land supplies, and voila, condos going up like madness across the GTA. The market shifts with supply, and when supply in low density housing gets constricted, it moves to high density. There is a reason the cities in the GTA that have the most lands greenfield lands designated for development have the most struggle getting multi family residential built.
It was that way across the entire GTA 10 years ago. Condos were barely a blip on the radar, especially outside of downtown. The Growth Plan came in, started forcing municipalities to restrict their land supplies, and voila, condos going up like madness across the GTA. The market shifts with supply, and when supply in low density housing gets constricted, it moves to high density. There is a reason the cities in the GTA that have the most lands greenfield lands designated for development have the most struggle getting multi family residential built.
TOareaFan
Superstar
^that is partially true...but one thing about multi-res buildings as opposed to single family dwellings is that land cost plays a much smaller part of the end cost of a unit.......which, effectively, makes the cost of construction equal across the municipalities in a region......so when a condo in Brampton has to cost (+/-) the same as it does anywhere else....you will still have a weak (comparatively) market as when you remove price from the equation then people will select their condos based on location/proximity (to Toronto, to lake, to subways, even highways) or available services (hospitals, universities, etc)....and Brampton does not compare favourably on those fronts. Brampton attracts single family dwelling buyers on price. It is quite remarkable the difference in prices here to elsewhere....and if that price differential did not exist the growth of the city would slow.......but it would not shift to condos.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
yes, growth would likely drop. Thats because its not a prime place for a condo, and the real estate market isn't isolated to individual municipalities. Some growth would shift to condos within the municipality who wish to stay in the area, while many others who were moving to Brampton for the affordability would simply move elsewhere in the GTA. But again, Brampton is affordable as it has so much new stock constantly coming online. You drop that new supply and the market will equalize a bit.
In the end the GTA as a whole grows by roughly 100,000 people a year, and far too many are moving into greenfield subdivisions on the edge of Brampton. Sprawl is easy to build, so it gets built. You make it tough to build, and people will shift to other forms of housing. The location of that new form of housing likely won't stay the same, but less sprawl will be built overall.
In the end the GTA as a whole grows by roughly 100,000 people a year, and far too many are moving into greenfield subdivisions on the edge of Brampton. Sprawl is easy to build, so it gets built. You make it tough to build, and people will shift to other forms of housing. The location of that new form of housing likely won't stay the same, but less sprawl will be built overall.
drum118
Superstar
Did I say it has to be Hurontario 100%??
I said to Own Sound as it could use some of the old CP Line and that "if" it is needed. You could branch off to service Collingwood.
Going to Collingwood to Ski, I either use the 400 or 10 depending on the weather. Been caught a few time with roads close because of snow using 10.
Talking to Paul Bedford at the QQ event, I said this is where Metrolinx lacks the authority to override community NINBY or take real control in dealing with a true Regional plan. Paul agree with me.
Time for a leadership change at Metrolinx.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
TOareaFan
Superstar
Here is a Star report on today's Brampton meeting.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
drum118
Superstar
The extra cost Brampton will have to pickup going tunnel is $225-$275m per km that includes the saving of $50m staying on the surface. If a underground station is needed, thats another $60m.
You do the distance these NIMBY folks want and that will tell you what the full cost will be. On top of this, will this be cut and fill or TBM as that will add another $300m for TBM and where do you put the launch and extraction site that will cause more of a mess than a surface route?
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
These NIMBY's are talking about operating costs, yet they want a tunnel through the core. Yeesh!
muller877
Senior Member
This is an argument that cities make to stop having basement apartments. Purely false in Toronto. When Toronto was built the average size of family was significantly larger as well. There are good charts that show the same thing in NYC. It was much more dense than it is now (even with the new high rises).
It wasn't until the 60's that the size of family in North America really started to shrink (birth control is the main reason).
So Toronto and surrounding areas does have enough capacity. The NIBMY's used it to slow down the basement apartment growth in their neighbourhood (the horror...a renter!). There may be sewer issues if people are using too much water/sewers to shower but that can be controlled via peak demand pricing.
TOareaFan
Superstar
You know that the largest opposition to this LRT is not the downtown folks who could be described as NIMBY.....the largest are people who are looking at this line and its route and realizing it serves very, very few people in Brampton and they are not advocating to end/block LRT they are advocating for LRT but on a route that has more value to Brampton and its residents. This was true before yesterday's meeting and it will be even more true now that it is revealed that "free" does not mean "free" and costs to Brampton could climb as high as $100 million.