[drum118]

Mississauga got the loop, which itself is ridiculous.

No kidding....It only going to add extra travel time for riders who want to bypass MCC as well seeing the line split in two requiring extra transferring time. The loop will work if it only sees loop service or the line becoming an Burnhamthorpe line.

Until recently, blue was the colour of Mississauga’s express 100-series routes. It’s also the primary Brampton Transit colour. But bright red isn’t used by anything outside of the TTC, so that could have been an option too.

You can use several types of green or a combination of colours. There is always the yellow car in place of the yellow bus.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

Yes because the 70 floor buildings at confederation and burnamthorpe don’t remotely justify proper transit but no development downtown Brampton deserves the Cadillac of transit. It’s exactly the same thing right down to the price tag.

The new Official Plan for Brampton includes a plan to raze downtown and then massively increase the density.

The Loop will net worsen transit access along the Hurontario Line because it will result in Line 10 being split in two, and add a significant amount of time looping around Mississauga City Centre.

 

[sixrings]

The new Official Plan for Brampton includes a plan to raze downtown and then massively increase the density.

The Loop will net worsen transit access along the Hurontario Line because it will result in Line 10 being split in two, and add a significant amount of time looping around Mississauga City Centre.

That plan is years away from happening. That’s great it will increase density. It will never rival square one.The Brampton underground portion costs significantly more than the loop. Finally it’s how they choose to operate the loop which will be the deciding factor if it takes longer.

 

[afransen]

The new Official Plan for Brampton includes a plan to raze downtown and then massively increase the density.

The Loop will net worsen transit access along the Hurontario Line because it will result in Line 10 being split in two, and add a significant amount of time looping around Mississauga City Centre.

If we're razing downtown Brampton anyway, why not do it to build the LRT on the surface instead of tunneling?

 

[Allandale25]

If we're razing downtown Brampton anyway, why not do it to build the LRT on the surface instead of tunneling?

The entire downtown is not being razed. Certain buildings and their setbacks from the existing right of way will remain.

 

[DKsan]

I'm struggling to understand why building the loop and asking riders to choose a service that best suits their needs is worsening service. Building the loop increases service coverage and services at least one more high-target destination in the Square One area (Celebration Square, Sheridan and the central library). I never took the MiExpress 100 but know from frequent 502 riding that the main target is often Square One.

But this also feels like other issues that impact GTA transit planning, from fare zones (defunct) to linear transfers, in that we just assume riders will not use a service if they are a tiny bit inconvenienced.

 

[Allandale25]

In all the talk of the Loop, I'm having some difficultly appreciating which trips will negatively impacted, and by the most. Is it people who want a want seat ride from let's say Gateway all the way to Port Credit and the Loop obviously adds a transfer and more time? Or is it someone going from Eglinton to Port Credit which I assume would have more trips/interest?

 

[afransen]

I think drums example is Eglinton to Cooksville requiring a transfer.

 

[ARG1]

I'm struggling to understand why building the loop and asking riders to choose a service that best suits their needs is worsening service. Building the loop increases service coverage and services at least one more high-target destination in the Square One area (Celebration Square, Sheridan and the central library). I never took the MiExpress 100 but know from frequent 502 riding that the main target is often Square One.

But this also feels like other issues that impact GTA transit planning, from fare zones (defunct) to linear transfers, in that we just assume riders will not use a service if they are a tiny bit inconvenienced.

Let me answer that question with another example: take a look at Waterloo iON. iON is a prime example of everything wrong with this idea of "increases service coverage and services at least one more high-target destination" rather than just choosing a street and sticking to it. There are a ton of points where the line splits making using the service awkward for those who need to use a station that's only serviced in 1 direction, not to mention all of the constant turning really slows down the service, where the line runs at ~45km/h when on a straight away, and slows down to 10-15km/h when approaching an intersection with a curve. This means that if the diversion serves the destination you need to access, great! If it doesn't, well your travel time on the line significantly increases.

The same principle applies here, sure the loop now serves more important locations of the Square 1 area, but if you're someone who isn't heading to Square 1, now you have to waste an additional 10m going around the loop, or (depending on the service pattern), have to transfer trains just to continue going south (or north).

Ok, maybe we can improve service by just having 2 services, one that services the loop and 1 that just goes straight on Hurontario? Well iirc they only have enough LRVs to run 5-7m headways, which means the service you want will at most run every 10-14m. This is dreadful for what is supposed to be a major rapid transit artery.

And if you want a specific example of how this can be negatively impactful, imagine you live on Hurontario and Eglinton, and you want to go to Downtown Toronto. How would you do that? Option 1 is to the transfer to the Zum Main bus at Brampton Gateway, and the other option is to traverse the loop to reach the GO train at Port Credit (or Cooksville if and when Milton Expansion is finished). Either way you have to struggle through the loop.

 

[sixrings]

Let me answer that question with another example: take a look at Waterloo iON. iON is a prime example of everything wrong with this idea of "increases service coverage and services at least one more high-target destination" rather than just choosing a street and sticking to it. There are a ton of points where the line splits making using the service awkward for those who need to use a station that's only serviced in 1 direction, not to mention all of the constant turning really slows down the service, where the line runs at ~45km/h when on a straight away, and slows down to 10-15km/h when approaching an intersection with a curve. This means that if the diversion serves the destination you need to access, great! If it doesn't, well your travel time on the line significantly increases.

The same principle applies here, sure the loop now serves more important locations of the Square 1 area, but if you're someone who isn't heading to Square 1, now you have to waste an additional 10m going around the loop, or (depending on the service pattern), have to transfer trains just to continue going south (or north).

Ok, maybe we can improve service by just having 2 services, one that services the loop and 1 that just goes straight on Hurontario? Well iirc they only have enough LRVs to run 5-7m headways, which means the service you want will at most run every 10-14m. This is dreadful for what is supposed to be a major rapid transit artery.

And if you want a specific example of how this can be negatively impactful, imagine you live on Hurontario and Eglinton, and you want to go to Downtown Toronto. How would you do that? Option 1 is to the transfer to the Zum Main bus at Brampton Gateway, and the other option is to traverse the loop to reach the GO train at Port Credit (or Cooksville if and when Milton Expansion is finished). Either way you have to struggle through the loop.

I’d argue that the loop helps make square one a destination rather than worry about getting people to Toronto all the time.

I also thought we were trying to get the Milton GO to branch to Sq1 in which case this whole argument is moot.

 

[ARG1]

I’d argue that the loop helps make square one a destination rather than worry about getting people to Toronto all the time.

I don't like logic at all. Transit should not be used to dictate which destinations people want to go to. Otherwise, tough luck in removing suburban car dependency. The prime destination for a rapid transit line should be easy access to higher order services, namely GO in this case.

I also thought we were trying to get the Milton GO to branch to Sq1 in which case this whole argument is moot.

Hold your horses there bud. First, I don't exactly remember what I advocated for, but I'm pretty sure it was something like extending Line 2 to MCC via the Milton Corridor. This idea is now out the window now that Metrolinx is committing $6B on Milton upgrades.

Second, even if I am generally in favour of a Milton branch to MCC, fact of the matter is that this project is nowhere on the books, and exists as a pure fantasy idea. Even if this is an idea that the government finds the value for and build such an offshoot, it likely won't be built for another 20 years, long after the loop is built. So maybe long term you would be correct, but as it stands right now Hurontario is "supposed" to be a major arterial that would allow people to quickly travel from 1 end of Hurontario to the other, and the loop flies in the face of this.

I think a decent example would be to imagine if Line 2 had to travel down the entire downtown U before continuing along Bloor/Danforth, and how infuriating that would be for people who don't want to travel to Downtown toronto.

 

[sixrings]

I don't like logic at all. Transit should not be used to dictate which destinations people want to go to. Otherwise, tough luck in removing suburban car dependency. The prime destination for a rapid transit line should be easy access to higher order services, namely GO in this case.

Hold your horses there bud. First, I don't exactly remember what I advocated for, but I'm pretty sure it was something like extending Line 2 to MCC via the Milton Corridor. This idea is now out the window now that Metrolinx is committing $6B on Milton upgrades.

Second, even if I am generally in favour of a Milton branch to MCC, fact of the matter is that this project is nowhere on the books, and exists as a pure fantasy idea. Even if this is an idea that the government finds the value for and build such an offshoot, it likely won't be built for another 20 years, long after the loop is built. So maybe long term you would be correct, but as it stands right now Hurontario is "supposed" to be a major arterial that would allow people to quickly travel from 1 end of Hurontario to the other, and the loop flies in the face of this.

I think a decent example would be to imagine if Line 2 had to travel down the entire downtown U before continuing along Bloor/Danforth, and how infuriating that would be for people who don't want to travel to Downtown toronto.

I don't like logic at all. Transit should not be used to dictate which destinations people want to go to. Otherwise, tough luck in removing suburban car dependency. The prime destination for a rapid transit line should be easy access to higher order services, namely GO in this case.

Hold your horses there bud. First, I don't exactly remember what I advocated for, but I'm pretty sure it was something like extending Line 2 to MCC via the Milton Corridor. This idea is now out the window now that Metrolinx is committing $6B on Milton upgrades.

Second, even if I am generally in favour of a Milton branch to MCC, fact of the matter is that this project is nowhere on the books, and exists as a pure fantasy idea. Even if this is an idea that the government finds the value for and build such an offshoot, it likely won't be built for another 20 years, long after the loop is built. So maybe long term you would be correct, but as it stands right now Hurontario is "supposed" to be a major arterial that would allow people to quickly travel from 1 end of Hurontario to the other, and the loop flies in the face of this.

I think a decent example would be to imagine if Line 2 had to travel down the entire downtown U before continuing along Bloor/Danforth, and how infuriating that would be for people who don't want to travel to Downtown toronto.

Get rid of the loop then and put a BRT down burnamthorpe.

 

[drum118]

I think drums example is Eglinton to Cooksville requiring a transfer.

You are correct.

Eglinton and Hurontario area are to see major development for four sites with two other sites under construction to house somewhere 15,000 residents if not more since the plaza plan is not official for numbers yet, other than the nine towers ringing it that are official,
.
Pinnacle Uptownl site was originally to see 7,500 residents with the city cutting it in haft.

The plaza at Kingsbridge is to be redeveloped and that will add more residents to the area.

Today, Dundas see large numbers of riders using the 103 that it can be at crush load off peak let along at peak as they are going to work north of the 401, an area that still has a lot of empty employment lands as well to Derry Rd and Steeles.

The amount of ridership for the loop from M City and Parkside Village will be a drop in the bucket compared to new ridership on Hurontario.

The last time I looked at ridership numbers for Route 19, the south of MCC was at 60% and the North was at 40% and was moving toward a 50% split for riders who got off at MCC. It took 15 minutes to go to/from CCTT when traffic had no issues. When the line was split to route 17 and 2 as well adding Brampton 502 to the line, ridership fell close to 50% if not more for Route 17 that service was cut for it with the 103 picking up some route 17 ridership since it was saving riders close to 20 minutes of transferring time as well going to CCTT from Hurontario St on a good traffic timeframe, The 103 bus save riders 13 minutes bypassing CCTT each direction with a stop to allow riders to get to/from the mall or office buildings in the area.

When one looks at the whole corridor today, let alone 20 years down the road, the bulk of ridership will be from the north as far south as Dundas where it will start to drop off to the point very few riders will be going south of the Queensway to Port Credit. One reason that the 103 bus was cut back to the Queensway like it is today. Are LRV';s going to see the same thing???

Once Cooksville becomes an all-day service station for the Milton line, ridership will jump to/from it, especially from the north that riders for the line will drive to the station than try using the split LRT line and not have to waste their time doing so regardless transit is to be the better way.

 

[Dan416]

You are correct.

Eglinton and Hurontario area are to see major development for four sites with two other sites under construction to house somewhere 15,000 residents if not more since the plaza plan is not official for numbers yet, other than the nine towers ringing it that are official,
.
Pinnacle Uptownl site was originally to see 7,500 residents with the city cutting it in haft.

The plaza at Kingsbridge is to be redeveloped and that will add more residents to the area.

Today, Dundas see large numbers of riders using the 103 that it can be at crush load off peak let along at peak as they are going to work north of the 401, an area that still has a lot of empty employment lands as well to Derry Rd and Steeles.

The amount of ridership for the loop from M City and Parkside Village will be a drop in the bucket compared to new ridership on Hurontario.

The last time I looked at ridership numbers for Route 19, the south of MCC was at 60% and the North was at 40% and was moving toward a 50% split for riders who got off at MCC. It took 15 minutes to go to/from CCTT when traffic had no issues. When the line was split to route 17 and 2 as well adding Brampton 502 to the line, ridership fell close to 50% if not more for Route 17 that service was cut for it with the 103 picking up some route 17 ridership since it was saving riders close to 20 minutes of transferring time as well going to CCTT from Hurontario St on a good traffic timeframe, The 103 bus save riders 13 minutes bypassing CCTT each direction with a stop to allow riders to get to/from the mall or office buildings in the area.

When one looks at the whole corridor today, let alone 20 years down the road, the bulk of ridership will be from the north as far south as Dundas where it will start to drop off to the point very few riders will be going south of the Queensway to Port Credit. One reason that the 103 bus was cut back to the Queensway like it is today. Are LRV';s going to see the same thing???

Once Cooksville becomes an all-day service station for the Milton line, ridership will jump to/from it, especially from the north that riders for the line will drive to the station than try using the split LRT line and not have to waste their time doing so regardless transit is to be the better way.

With the loop, they really need to have separate services for those staying on Hurontario. The loop could just be separate like the old shuttle bus that looped around the mall like 10-20 years ago.

 

[nfitz]

The loop could just be separate like the old shuttle bus that looped around the mall like 10-20 years ago.

Line 11!