Longitudinal seating layouts having fewer overall seats than transverse, all other factors being the same, is NOT possible in virtually all cases. I'm not sure I need to explain this for other people.

Given the same amount of space, you would always be able to fit more longitudinal seating, especially if continuous bench seating. Given the same amount of seating area, you would always have more standing space with a longitudinal layout. Given the same amount of passengers on a train, it is always easier to find a seat in a longitudinal layout. The only exception is in bizarro world where the rolling stock manufacturer makes a longitudinal layout with tiny short benches that don't use up the available perimeter space. For all intents and purposes, longitudinal layouts allow more people to sit, more easily, with less people having to stand. Properly calculated permissible turn speeds and well designed benches as shown below will prevent you from sliding off. Finally, any acceleration leading to you sliding off is more likely to occur under heavy braking and turning for transverse seating than for longitudinal seating.

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Literally, where are you getting this idea? the whole point of longitudinal seating is a trade-off of fewer seats for more standing room. Took me all of 5 mins to add 6 more seats to the TR cab car layout by switching most longitudinal seats to transverse while providing more leg room than there is today, could fit even more. Google will tell you that Traverse has more seating. So will ChatGPT, so will transit professionals. Longitudinal layouts may make it easier to access a seat, and certainly has more passenger capacity overall, but more seats? be serious
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What I want to know is whether longitudinal seating improve boarding time by speeding up the spread of riders into the interior of the vehicle during peak periods. The narrowness of central corridors at the transverse seating is bit of a chokepoint.

AoD
I bet. The front and back doors of flexitys are often really slow to board on the ion because if funnels everyone down the narrowest aisle
 
Literally, where are you getting this idea? the whole point of longitudinal seating is a trade-off of fewer seats for more standing room. Took me all of 5 mins to add 6 more seats to the TR cab car layout by switching most longitudinal seats to transverse while providing more leg room than there is today, could fit even more. Google will tell you that Traverse has more seating. So will ChatGPT, so will transit professionals. Longitudinal layouts may make it easier to access a seat, and certainly has more passenger capacity overall, but more seats? be serious
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You're missing my conditional clauses, given the same amount of floor area, given the same amount of total area dedicated to seating. You just showed me two mixed layouts that dedicate different amounts of floor area to seating. The one with more total seats uses up more space; i.e. more area is occupied by seating. Telling me a layout that dedicates more area to seats also happens to offer more seats is not some mind blowing revelation. Obviously that layout would have more seats... But even if you showed me a fully transverse and fully longitudinal layout to compare, my point still stands.

This can be mathematically proven, but really doesn't need to be because it's intuitive spatial intelligence.
Ask chatgpt if including "the same perimeter wall length available for a bench" or "same perimeter wall length available for seating" changes anything to your scenario. I don't want to have to use more complicated lingo than I have to when I am trying to make good faith attempts to inform people, especially when there are some people who can't be bothered to read before replying or figure out 112-14=98.

Yes, if you made unreasonably narrow aisles or a super special 6 metre wide subway car instead of a typical 2.5 to 3.2 metres, then yes transverse could potentially offer more seating than perimeter longitudinal.
 
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You're missing my conditional clauses, given the same amount of floor area, given the same amount of total area dedicated to seating. You just showed me two mixed layouts that dedicate different amounts of floor area to seating. The one with more total seats uses up more space; i.e. more area is occupied by seating. Telling me a layout that dedicates more area to seats also happens to offer more seats is not some mind blowing revelation. Obviously that layout would have more seats... But even if you showed me a fully transverse and fully longitudinal layout to compare, my point still stands.

This can be mathematically proven, but really doesn't need to be because it's intuitive spatial intelligence.
Ask chatgpt if including "the same perimeter wall length available for a bench" or "same perimeter wall length available for seating" changes anything to your scenario. I don't want to have to use more complicated lingo than I have to when I am trying to make good faith attempts to inform people, especially when there are some people who can't be bothered to read before replying or figure out 112-14=98.

Yes, if you made unreasonably narrow aisles or a super special 6 metre wide subway car instead of a typical 2.5 to 3.2 metres, then yes transverse could potentially offer more seating than perimeter longitudinal.
Your conditional clause sounds a lot like shifting the goalpost. You keep insisting on “same floor area dedicated to seating” or “same perimeter wall length.” Nobody designs trains this way. My comment was about how the study may have gotten that result because the trains using longitudinal layouts tend to have fewer seats in practice, which leads to more people standing. That is literally how metros are actually configured.
 
Your conditional clause sounds a lot like shifting the goalpost. You keep insisting on “same floor area dedicated to seating” or “same perimeter wall length.” Nobody designs trains this way. My comment was about how the study may have gotten that result because the trains using longitudinal layouts tend to have fewer seats in practice, which leads to more people standing. That is literally how metros are actually configured.
Yes I will admit my long post was not clear. And yes, past the point where you dedicate the same floor space to seating with transverse as you would a longitudinal perimeter layout, if you increase floor space use beyond the maximum area longitudinal perimeter seating can take, then transverse does offer more seating. Sorry for being so unclear earlier.

My ultimate point was to reiterate that transverse, given the same floor area occupied by seating, will offer less seats because seat pitch has to be taken into account, which is never optimal for each individual; this also comparatively reduces usable standing space. Longitudinal seating technically has virtually* unlimited leg room, only constrained by crush loads rarely seen in Toronto. (edit*)
 
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Just anecdotally on the ION it's not usually what holds trains up at stations. More often its someone trying to get on right as the doors are starting to close. I imagine some station on finch and hurontario will be busier than most on the ION though, and their gangways are significantly narrower so i think its more of a concern on the citadis spirits
 
*Sigh* it's always this again... Read this slowly: All other factors being the same "Given the same amount of space, ____ you would always be able to fit more longitudinal seating, _____ especially if continuous bench seating." Continuous bench seating gets you more seating space than curved derriere shaped bucket seats, this design is maximized with longitudinal seating. Why could there possibly be less total seats for a longitudinal seating layout than transverse seating? Ceteris Paribus. Please explain.
Where did you get this statement from? 4 seats abreast in transverse seating takes up the portion of the train car exactly equal to seat pitch i.e. the distance between rows. 4 seats longitudinally takes up the length exactly equal to the width of two seats. Width of two seats is generally greater than seat pitch, so longitudinal seating takes up more room, therefore fits fewer seats.
 
Where did you get this statement from? 4 seats abreast in transverse seating takes up the portion of the train car exactly equal to seat pitch i.e. the distance between rows. 4 seats longitudinally takes up the length exactly equal to the width of two seats. Width of two seats is generally greater than seat pitch, so longitudinal seating takes up more room, therefore fits fewer seats.
When you have transverse seating, decision makers have to pick a seat pitch aka the distance between a transverse seat and the one in front of it. They have to pick a distance based on average/median heights and femur lengths so it works for most people. Thus, there is always space between rows of transverse seats that cannot be used for standing whether the seats are occupied or not. There is effectively more floor space taken up by two rows of 2+2 transverse seats than two perimeter longitudinal benches seating 4 people each.

My assumption is that a hypothetical 4 person wide longitudinal bench ITSELF takes up the exact same floor area as a 4 person wide transverse bench, which would also be the same floor area as 2+2 transverse benches with a middle aisle. They all take up the exact same surface area of the train car floor from a top down view like this.
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In practice though, I think a single transverse seat will take up more space than a single longitudinal seat, even though the seat itself takes up the same space as a longitudinal one. Imagine a case where a particularly short person occupies a transverse seat in a transverse only layout. They leave a huge gap in front of them to the seat in front of them. There would be no reasonable way for that space to be used even during peak afternoon rush hour. It would be highly awkward for a standing patron to insert themselves into that gap. There is always some legroom unused in transverse seating, unless all the seated patrons are giants.

There is no wasted provisioning for legroom in perimeter longitudinal seating. And psychologically, it's less of an invasion of personal space to have to share some legroom with a standing patron when you are seated longitudinally during a rush hour crush load. So I am taking into account soft real world factors.

If you are ok with taking up more floor space than a maxed out longitudinal only layout, then transverse layouts can definitely offer more seats. But that wouldn't be ceteris paribus anymore. You are effectively occupying more floor space in order to get more seats; that is not all other factors being the same. See my reply to @KhalilHeron above.
My ultimate point was to reiterate that transverse, given the same floor area occupied by seating, will offer less seats because seat pitch has to be taken into account, which is never optimal for each individual; this also comparatively reduces usable standing space. Longitudinal seating technically has virtually* unlimited leg room, only constrained by crush loads rarely seen in Toronto. (edit*)
That is all not to mention that longitudinal flat bench seats make it more appealing for patrons to sit closer together shoulder to shoulder. Again in cases of smaller patrons, you would be hard pressed to have 3 of them share the seating area designed for 2 average-sized patrons in transverse seating. Conversely, 3 smaller patrons sharing the seat area designed for 2 average patrons on a longitudinal bench would be entirely feasible.
 
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*Sigh* it's always this again... Read this slowly: All other factors being the same "Given the same amount of space, ____ you would always be able to fit more longitudinal seating, _____ especially if continuous bench seating." Continuous bench seating gets you more seating space than curved derriere shaped bucket seats, this design is maximized with longitudinal seating. Why could there possibly be less total seats for a longitudinal seating layout than transverse seating? Ceteris Paribus. Please explain.
What about the argument about longitudinal seating allowing more standing room?
 
By the end of 2026, tracks should be in place from end to end and maybe for the elevated section. This is subject to how much of the existing trackwork has to be rebuilt.
DM'd @micheal_can because I'm derailing the thread. @drum118 do you think it's likely the line opens before end of 2029? Given how Line 5 and 6 have gone, it appears to take between 1-5 years from when all tracks are laid and electrified to opening.
 

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