And re the history-we-can-tell-our-children part: I suppose re events this week, ksun would feel at home with this crowd

1297668004712_ORIGINAL.jpg
 
And seriously--the "queer landmark" element is a no-brainer here; indeed, the tower makes a good pendant to the Alexander Wood statue--almost like this particular first block of Alexander St ought to be played up as a ceremonial "queer corridor" or something...
 
I wonder if this has been suggested to the developer as a serious idea, it could be their 'art contribution'.

As for Ksun, oh dear, why even bother with his comments! It does make me wonder how many feel the way he does, new Canadians from older 'Historic' countries and hosers who feel there's always something better somewhere else. You know the types, the ones brutalizing our beautiful heritage buildings with EIFS.
 
Tewder said:
I wonder if this has been suggested to the developer as a serious idea, it could be their 'art contribution'.

As for Ksun, oh dear, why even bother with his comments! It does make me wonder how many feel the way he does, new Canadians from older 'Historic' countries and hosers who feel there's always something better somewhere else. You know the types, the ones brutalizing our beautiful heritage buildings with EIFS.
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Now, let's not place the blame just on new Canadians, as if they are the only ones using EIFS on extant buildings. Just look down south and see how popular that crap is.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Now, let's not place the blame just on new Canadians, as if they are the only ones using EIFS on extant buildings. Just look down south and see how popular that crap is.

AoD
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I completely agree... i blamed 'hosers' too (born here types).
 
condovo said:
ksun, you're out of your depth. You don't know what you're talking about. In fact the more you talk, the more it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. You should just stop.
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so far not convinced ...
All you guys can come up with is some very small and insignificant history about the location which really doesn't have much to do with the tower. I'm open minded but am simply not convinced there is anything important enough to preserve. You can keep pretending it is some sort of heritage landmark and wait for folks from Sudbury and Peterborough to admire but the fact remains that there is no history or even an interesting story to tell and that its importance is rather insignificant.

Adma should work on his logic... Just because I don't think a clock tower that happens to be near some lgbt event you think is a massive deal is not worth preserving, that makes me "homophobic"? Wow! I didn't like Tel Aviv, does that make me a nazi? I am sure you have not taken GRE, GMAT or LSAT. Such mistakes can be easily avoided if some simple training in logic and reasoning is received.
 
This is really awful and it's getting worse and worse the longer these posts go on. I guess it makes the thread popular though.

But seriously, is the clock tower not a significant part of gay and lesbian history that should be preserved? And no one is calling anyone a Nazi, just a dogmatic and insensitive forum poster who hasn't done any research on any history in Toronto.

http://www.clga.ca/whats-archives-st-charles-tavern
 
Hmmmm... Interesting. When I first moved to toronto.. It was a different city than it is now. The St. Charles tavern, and hence the tower, was THE centre of gay life for many. It was also the centre of abuse and conflict from 'suburbanites' and others who hurled nasty comments from their cars and eggs etc. many of of were,fearful and would,enter through the black door in the alley. Fortunately toronto has changed. This tower is a symbol of those times....it's not necessarily about the towers architectural significance. I suppose some people take all this for granted....but there's HAS been a struggle. None of us should take lighty.
 
Agreed that it's not about the actual clock tower's architecture, it's about what it represents. Some people aren't getting that point because they can't relate at all...but when you think about it they should be able to relate in some manner as we have all had to struggle for something. The good fight is always worth remembering regardless of how 'pretty' something is or the desire of many to destroy it and move on and forget. History is relative and it could be something that happened a few days ago or a few hundred years ago. But to dismiss everything in Toronto as being small and insignificant is grossly ignorant and beyond arrogant.
 
It's problematic to a) evaluate the importance of historic/heritage sites based on the viability of populist tourist sites:
ksun said:
You can keep pretending it is some sort of heritage landmark and wait for folks from Sudbury and Peterborough to admire [...]
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... and all the more so when b) refusing to acknowledge History as anything other than what can be viewed through a very narrow and traditional - which is to say heterosexist (and let's face it likely misogynistic) - lens. It continues to perpetuate the invisibility and insignificance of anything that isn't male and straight:
(
ksun said:
All you guys can come up with is some very small and insignificant history about the location[...] I'm open minded but am simply not convinced there is anything important enough to preserve [...] the fact remains that there is no history or even an interesting story to tell and that its importance is rather insignificant.
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... and enough with the Nazi stuff. This sort of latent homophobia is far more insidious, and extremely damaging for it!
 
For the record, I'm a new Canadian, born and raised in a city with a few hundred years more history than Toronto, and that perspective makes me want to preserve MORE historic buildings and structures than probably the average Torontonian, not less. Please don't lump us all together.
 
Therion said:
Ignorant, but not homophobic. Not on purpose, at least.
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Homophobia doesn't have to be "on purpose". And ignorance is a huge part of it. It's the same with racism. You don't have to walk around calling people offensive racial or homophobic names to be a racist or a homophobic individual. It's often a much more "undercover" and passive type of ignorance and discrimination against a group of people.

I would say that calling the events surrounding the Bathhouse Raids / Operation Soap in Toronto "insignificant" (as ksun did) is the very definition of homophobia.
 
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