[generalcanada]

What important infrastructure was killed off? Did I miss some announcement?

again back to what i posted a few pages back.

one of the leslieville people in the public meetings i remember someone specifically asking: "we want this line cancelled, will you cancel it?"

point is, just because someone "feels" like they werent personally briefed on the project before anyone else, does not give them the right to cancel important infrastructure for millions of others.
Giving that right to them is not "Reasonable"

 

[DirectionNorth]

again back to what i posted a few pages back.

one of the leslieville people in the public meetings i remember someone specifically asking: "we want this line cancelled, will you cancel it?"

point is, just because someone "feels" like they werent personally briefed on the project before anyone else, does not give them the right to cancel important infrastructure for millions of others.
Giving that right to them is not "Reasonable"

Did even you read our posts at all? We made it extremely clear that we don't think we should do everything suggested.

Your anecdote is getting tired. Get a new one.

Those meetings are for people to air their opinion, and for Metrolinx to see if there's any large-scale problems. Please explain your logic other than "delay but I won't acknowledge any of your posts" as to why that is a bad thing.

 

[generalcanada]

Did even you read our posts at all? We made it extremely clear that we don't think we should do everything suggested.

Your anecdote is getting tired. Get a new one.

Those meetings are for people to air their opinion, and for Metrolinx to see if there's any large-scale problems. Please explain your logic other than "delay but I won't acknowledge any of your posts" as to why that is a bad thing.

Jeez why so hostile, its just my opinion that listening to every continually changing demand ensuring they are "satisfied" is not something we should be doing. It started with "same jimmie simpson park" MX came out immediately and said its not being used AT ALL, then its noise and vibration, then its just the amount of trains per hour. all in the goal to pressure MX to put the line underground.

That is my point, their demands are continually changing, there is no pleasing people whos opinions are fully opposed to the project in the first place.

yes i did read the above posts. and its not an anecdote, its a fact that the leslieville people want the line cancelled
Im posting in support of @MrGoose . @EnviroTO seems to have missed the fact that the leslieville people are being Nimby assholes trying to CANCEL an infrastructure project

 

[DirectionNorth]

Jeez why so hostile, its just my opinion that listening to every continually changing demand ensuring they are "satisfied" is not something we should be doing. It started with "same jimmie simpson park" MX came out immediately and said its not being used AT ALL, then its noise and vibration, then its just the amount of trains per hour. all in the goal to pressure MX to put the line underground.

Because your responses indicate that you haven't read the posts on this thread at all, while you continue to post a single anecdote and use strawmen. I (and others, I'm sure), would appreciate it if you actually engaged with our positions, rather than imagined positions in your head.

That is my point, their demands are continually changing, there is no pleasing people whos opinions are fully opposed to the project in the first place.

Nice anecdote. What about the community pressure on Metrolinx in Thorncliffe Park that forced them to compromise with the community in the demolition of a central community organization? Or when they promised a community center for Finch/Jane, then screwed them over by proposing to sell the land for a condo building? Notice how the communities at the short end of the stick are all low income.

Yes i did read the above posts. and its not an anecdote, its a fact that the leslieville people want the line cancelled

And it's a fact that you're using a strawman by arguing that we want the line cancelled for Leslieville NIMBYs.

It's also a fact that you've only argued using the Leslieville argument, ignoring the actual concerns of other communities on transit lines, including on the Ontario Line.

Im posting in support of @MrGoose . @EnviroTO seems to have missed the fact that the leslieville people are being Nimby assholes trying to CANCEL an infrastructure project

Jeez why so hostile, it's just my opinion that there are people in communities with legitimate concerns, and that a government agency has a basic responsibility to be transparent to the public.

 

[generalcanada]

Because your responses indicate that you haven't read the posts on this thread at all, while you continue to post a single anecdote and use strawmen. I (and others, I'm sure), would appreciate it if you actually engaged with our positions, rather than imagined positions in your head.

Nice anecdote. What about the community pressure on Metrolinx in Thorncliffe Park that forced them to compromise with the community in the demolition of a central community organization? Or when they promised a community center for Finch/Jane, then screwed them over by proposing to sell the land for a condo building? Notice how the communities at the short end of the stick are all low income.

And it's a fact that you're using a strawman by arguing that we want the line cancelled for Leslieville NIMBYs.

It's also a fact that you've only argued using the Leslieville argument, ignoring the actual concerns of other communities on transit lines, including on the Ontario Line.

Jeez why so hostile, it's just my opinion that there are people in communities with legitimate concerns, and that a government agency has a basic responsibility to be transparent to the public.

This is the ONTARIO LINE thread, not the finch west LRT.

But sure you bring up another good example of Nimbys in the ontario line, Thorncliffe park has had many changes that catered to those in the community.
Originally, the line was elevated in the centre of Overlea blvd. but because people from the churches complained about how close it was to them, they moved it to the hydro corridor to the north. They are still complaining that the line is elevated and "will destroy the character of the community"

When MX announced that they want to put the MSF in the rail yard to the north, people complained that the businesses werent consulted and that they need to move it somewhere else. The businesses said they were and they reached a deal with MX to build a new community center with money given up front. The residents still repeat the same talking points like in leslieville even though its already been resolved. They act as if they didnt talk to any of the buisnesses there, just like the same jimmie simpson park story.

they were not "forced to comprimise" they negotiated fairly with metrolinx and got a good deal out of it.

And ya sure the finch community hub was a fuckup by MX, but thats an example of good community feedback. "on this open piece of land we will give you money to build an awesome new community center"

Since when is leslieville low income?

Youre right, some communities have legitimate concerns, like where would the only mosque go? but the thing is, when your demand is met, you cant go and say "oh we want this too" youre not negotiating in good faith

 

[EnviroTO]

again back to what i posted a few pages back.

one of the leslieville people in the public meetings i remember someone specifically asking: "we want this line cancelled, will you cancel it?"

point is, just because someone "feels" like they werent personally briefed on the project before anyone else, does not give them the right to cancel important infrastructure for millions of others.
Giving that right to them is not "Reasonable"

Giving them the right speak their opinion, share their rationale for their opinion, and to be heard it part of free speech and the democratic process. They don't hold the right to cancel the project, but I fail to see why they wouldn't have the right to ask if they will. Nobody has ever given people in public outreach sessions full control to do whatever they want. Part of the democratic process is unfortunately that some fringe voices will be heard or elected and it is a reason that it is important for more moderate voices to get involved in our democracy.

 

[DirectionNorth]

This is the ONTARIO LINE thread, not the finch west LRT.

Let's change the subject when it becomes inconvenient.

If you want to argue about the merits of public consultation, you'd better be prepared for arguments that don't just involve the OL.

But sure you bring up another good example of Nimbys in the ontario line, Thorncliffe park has had many changes that catered to those in the community.
Originally, the line was elevated in the centre of Overlea blvd. but because people from the churches complained about how close it was to them, they moved it to the hydro corridor to the north. They are still complaining that the line is elevated and "will destroy the character of the community"

I haven't heard about this. When was this? And is this another anecdote of a random person with an opinion or is it something supported by a larger percentage of the community?

When MX announced that they want to put the MSF in the rail yard to the north, people complained that the businesses werent consulted and that they need to move it somewhere else. The businesses said they were and they reached a deal with MX to build a new community center with money given up front. The residents still repeat the same talking points like in leslieville even though its already been resolved. They act as if they didnt talk to any of the buisnesses there, just like the same jimmie simpson park story.

Really? I thought the noise had died down. After all, Metrolinx announced their plans without any advance warning. If that's not unilateral, I don't know what is ...

they were not "forced to comprimise" they negotiated fairly with metrolinx and got a good deal out of it.

They got a good deal = Metrolinx didn't get to declare that they can demolish what they want.

And ya sure the finch community hub was a fuckup by MX, but thats an example of good community feedback. "on this open piece of land we will give you money to build an awesome new community center"

And then they announced that they would sell it to a developer.

Since when is leslieville low income?

Since when did I say that Save Jimmy Simpson was right?

Youre right, some communities have legitimate concerns, like where would the only mosque go? but the thing is, when your demand is met, you cant go and say "oh we want this too" youre not negotiating in good faith

And then you bring up another strawman that I (implicitly) support. Please stop.

 

[generalcanada]

jeez such a debatelord, strawmans anecdotes, sources? really dude?

I haven't heard about this. When was this? And is this another anecdote of a random person with an opinion or is it something supported by a larger percentage of the community?

Theres multiple people joining the public meetings making it known that they think the elevated line will hurt the community.
how do you tell the difference between the 2. same for housing if 5 people show up to a community input meeting all opposed, is that what the community really thinks as a whole?
and heres your source for the reason why they changed it

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

Really? I thought the noise had died down. After all, Metrolinx announced their plans without any advance warning. If that's not unilateral, I don't know what is ...

well theyre still yelling about it not supposed to be there for the businesses sake https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/comment/11447#comment-11447
100 upvotes from real people. again its the communities sentiment.
also they litterally had plans for the msf from Day 1 heres your sources:

Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario release Initial Business Case for Ontario Line subway

Toronto’s innovative new transit route will connect to GO as well as TTC subways and streetcars, as it creates a new transit route through the heart of the city. Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontari…

blog.metrolinx.com

They got a good deal = Metrolinx didn't get to declare that they can demolish what they want.

Metrolinx CAN demolish what they want, its called expropriation, they never do that, they ask the owners "what would you sell for" and give it to them, too bad we cant see the prices paid.
the owners always get a good deal, because MX doesnt want to use expropriation it hurts more than it helps

And then they announced that they would sell it to a developer.

you realize they went back on that when they realized their fuckup right?

Since when did I say that Save Jimmy Simpson was right?

you said jimmy simpson was right when you defended them saying they want the ontario line buried.
are they right or wrong in asking for that?

thats litterally what started this. the question is, how do we listen to a small minorities concerns when building infrastructure without discounting the thousands of others who will be using it and need it ASAP.
Yes thats a question in general for our democracy but in my opinion, i should have the right to say "build it asap and ignore them" just as they have the right to say "dont build it".
Isnt the basic premise of our democracy is that those who have the majority rules?

and i do maintain the right to tell them to shut up

 

[DirectionNorth]

jeez such a debatelord, strawmans anecdotes, sources? really dude?


Theres multiple people joining the public meetings making it known that they think the elevated line will hurt the community.
how do you tell the difference between the 2. same for housing if 5 people show up to a community input meeting all opposed, is that what the community really thinks as a whole?
and heres your source for the reason why they changed it

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

well theyre still yelling about it not supposed to be there for the businesses sake https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/comment/11447#comment-11447
100 upvotes from real people. again its the communities sentiment.
also they litterally had plans for the msf from Day 1 heres your sources:

Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario release Initial Business Case for Ontario Line subway

Toronto’s innovative new transit route will connect to GO as well as TTC subways and streetcars, as it creates a new transit route through the heart of the city. Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontari…

blog.metrolinx.com

Metrolinx CAN demolish what they want, its called expropriation, they never do that, they ask the owners "what would you sell for" and give it to them, too bad we cant see the prices paid.
the owners always get a good deal, because MX doesnt want to use expropriation it hurts more than it helps


you realize they went back on that when they realized their fuckup right?

you said jimmy simpson was right when you defended them saying they want the ontario line buried.
are they right or wrong in asking for that?

thats litterally what started this. the question is, how do we listen to a small minorities concerns when building infrastructure without discounting the thousands of others who will be using it and need it ASAP.
Yes thats a question in general for our democracy but in my opinion, i should have the right to say "build it asap and ignore them" just as they have the right to say "dont build it".
Isnt the basic premise of our democracy is that those who have the majority rules?

and i do maintain the right to tell them to shut up

I think we've gone over everything, let's settle this here.

 

[Northern Light]

jeez such a debatelord, strawmans anecdotes, sources? really dude?


Theres multiple people joining the public meetings making it known that they think the elevated line will hurt the community.
how do you tell the difference between the 2. same for housing if 5 people show up to a community input meeting all opposed, is that what the community really thinks as a whole?
and heres your source for the reason why they changed it

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

well theyre still yelling about it not supposed to be there for the businesses sake https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/comment/11447#comment-11447
100 upvotes from real people. again its the communities sentiment.
also they litterally had plans for the msf from Day 1 heres your sources:

Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario release Initial Business Case for Ontario Line subway

Toronto’s innovative new transit route will connect to GO as well as TTC subways and streetcars, as it creates a new transit route through the heart of the city. Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontari…

blog.metrolinx.com

Metrolinx CAN demolish what they want, its called expropriation, they never do that, they ask the owners "what would you sell for" and give it to them, too bad we cant see the prices paid.
the owners always get a good deal, because MX doesnt want to use expropriation it hurts more than it helps


you realize they went back on that when they realized their fuckup right?

you said jimmy simpson was right when you defended them saying they want the ontario line buried.
are they right or wrong in asking for that?

thats litterally what started this. the question is, how do we listen to a small minorities concerns when building infrastructure without discounting the thousands of others who will be using it and need it ASAP.
Yes thats a question in general for our democracy but in my opinion, i should have the right to say "build it asap and ignore them" just as they have the right to say "dont build it".
Isnt the basic premise of our democracy is that those who have the majority rules?

and i do maintain the right to tell them to shut up

I'm not going to get in the specifics in this back and forth.

What I will do is say this, @DirectionNorth is a very moderate voice on this forum, who expresses himself thoughtfully, with nuance, and is always open to an exchange of views.

Treating him otherwise does not serve any poster well.

Less extreme language is better. People who hold a different perspective are not your enemy.

****

I will comment separately on your last line.

You lack 'the right' to tell anyone to shut-up in a democratic society.

If people come to your house to proselytize their view at 3am.......that's different.

But if we're talking online or in a public meeting divergent views need to have room to be expressed. If they're wrong, that can be addressed with factual counter-points.

As someone whose had to stand at the front of the room in a few meetings over the years...........and has had to endure listening to some truly asinine comments made on a live mic..........
I still respect people's right to make me roll my eyes at them, even when I'm really not supposed to do that when I'm at the front of the room. LOL

 

[crs1026]

There’s a definite bias these days towards rhetoric that is extreme in these community discussions..

Somehow the questions that are asked when anyone raises a concern iare framed as “are you going to stop this thing?” rather than “do you have a better way that is realistic and affordable?” Both media and pols, who are utterly codependant, fall into this trap. There is a clear incentive to say “Hell yeah, we’re gonna fight it” instead of talking more rationally….. better media coverage, more dramatic media accounts, more readers and viewers, more voters saying “enough is enough”.

As it happens I was down in Leslieville yesterday, taking pictures of the vegetation removal. I was struck by how many people came up and spontaneously engaged me in discussion about the work, and how bitter they were. At the same time, I was conscious that I was making decisions about composing pictures so that they didn’t show so many BMW’s parked along the alleys.

As someone who doesn’t live there, I find it is a really nice space, one of the nicest in Toronto. I doubt that any of the overbuilt transit-oriented developments with their gargantuan podiums and soaring towers (the only thing that we seem to be approving in this city) will ever equal what is being removed. The vegetation that has been razed (which was mostly scrub growth that emerged relatively recently after the railways backed off on herbicides) was pleasant whereas the sound walls and civil works that will emerge will be sterile. And ML is not without fault in how it manages public input. Even those who support the plan ought to care about what is being placed at risk.

I’m not saying I oppose the plan, as the City has to grow…. but there ought to be respect for multiple perspectives. . We have so little tolerance for paradox in these debates. We seem to prefer things to be binary, where one position is right and the other is wrong. Mostly, both sides are right. It’s a challenge to pick the good ideas out of each source of input.

- Paul

 

[44 North]

Yea and it’s terrible there too. And the province should have told them to F off.

Yet the Prov effectively asked to be F'd when they catered to them to such an extent. So kinda the opposite. And seems as though the same thumb monkeys crying about how the RL was too deep and expensive will post in the YNSE thread about how going under rivers costs nothing, going 20m deeper costs nothing, and 50m deep stations cost less than nothing.

Yea and it’s terrible there too. And the province should have told them to F off.

The Paris RER A transports 1.2 Million people per day on two tracks and the Elizabeth line will be able to do the same.

I think that 4 lines into downtown from the East should be enough for now if we invest in the systems for that kind of capacity.

And when Lakeshore regional rail and Kitchener- Stouffville regional rail get maxed out, then we can think about another tunnel underneath the city.

But it's not the Elizabeth line. There will be diesels. And VIA. Milk runs and express. It's pretty much a given that ceding the rail corridor comes at a cost. This is why it was off the table until it wasn't. Which is ok because a subway line is extremely high ridership. Same with Line 3. Just that short section of track alongside the GO tracks carries more than 2x the entire +40km Stouffville Line. However in that instance the GO tracks were considered of too much importance to have a rapid transit line next to. Bit interesting to compare, just thought of it now but not entirely relevant.

 

[daniel_kryz]

There’s a definite bias these days towards rhetoric that is extreme in these community discussions..

Somehow the questions that are asked when anyone raises a concern iare framed as “are you going to stop this thing?” rather than “do you have a better way that is realistic and affordable?” Both media and pols, who are utterly codependant, fall into this trap. There is a clear incentive to say “Hell yeah, we’re gonna fight it” instead of talking more rationally….. better media coverage, more dramatic media accounts, more readers and viewers, more voters saying “enough is enough”.

As it happens I was down in Leslieville yesterday, taking pictures of the vegetation removal. I was struck by how many people came up and spontaneously engaged me in discussion about the work, and how bitter they were. At the same time, I was conscious that I was making decisions about composing pictures so that they didn’t show so many BMW’s parked along the alleys.

As someone who doesn’t live there, I find it is a really nice space, one of the nicest in Toronto. I doubt that any of the overbuilt transit-oriented developments with their gargantuan podiums and soaring towers (the only thing that we seem to be approving in this city) will ever equal what is being removed. The vegetation that has been razed (which was mostly scrub growth that emerged relatively recently after the railways backed off on herbicides) was pleasant whereas the sound walls and civil works that will emerge will be sterile. And ML is not without fault in how it manages public input. Even those who support the plan ought to care about what is being placed at risk.

I’m not saying I oppose the plan, as the City has to grow…. but there ought to be respect for multiple perspectives. . We have so little tolerance for paradox in these debates. We seem to prefer things to be binary, where one position is right and the other is wrong. Mostly, both sides are right. It’s a challenge to pick the good ideas out of each source of input.

- Paul

Thank you very much for spreading some common sense!

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder if the people who get upset of the removal of vegetation know that they are getting rid of poison ivy or oak, thorny shrubs, wild parsnip, stinging nettle, pokeweed, giant hogweed, dog-strangling vine, or non-native weed trees (see link). Yes, including Norway Maple which is not native.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Meanwhile, not everything goes well with building other metros...