LNahid2000
Senior Member
I don't think you can just compare a 3km route to a 16km route like that.
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
rbt
Senior Member
Toronto has the money for nearly anything we want.
We choose not to do it. There are good reasons for that choice, but it is a choice.
junctionist
Senior Member
Those numbers matter because a subway station should be connected to surface routes serving a lot of people to be useful. It should also be located in as central a location as possible in the neighbourhood it serves.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Toronto does have the money.
If Toronto would take the money it was given for the SRT to LRT conversion and use it for a tram-train system the entire city would have access to efficient, affordable, and reliable mass/rapid transit.
For that $1.5 billion Toronto could buy 100 50 meter trains, build a new garage/maintenance, add/modify some stations and build on-road track. It could contribute to GO for the advancement of electrification. Toronto could have a 100 km TRUE rapid transit system up and running in the amount of time it takes to get the trains. Most cities would give their left nut to have the rail corridors that Toronto has and Toronto doesn't use on foot of it for it's transit system,.
If Toronto would take the money it was given for the SRT to LRT conversion and use it for a tram-train system the entire city would have access to efficient, affordable, and reliable mass/rapid transit.
For that $1.5 billion Toronto could buy 100 50 meter trains, build a new garage/maintenance, add/modify some stations and build on-road track. It could contribute to GO for the advancement of electrification. Toronto could have a 100 km TRUE rapid transit system up and running in the amount of time it takes to get the trains. Most cities would give their left nut to have the rail corridors that Toronto has and Toronto doesn't use on foot of it for it's transit system,.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Come back to me when the rail corridors stop running through empty industrial areas and actually go where people want to go.
Also, it is well known that it will take around a billion to bring each go corridor up to all day 2 way service, and about another billion to electrify the services. So in short, for $1.5 billion you could get about 3/4 of a songle go line electrified and but at HOURLY frequencies. Costs more if you want more frequency, so pony it up.
The bottom line is that there is no magical cheap transit solution to Torontos problems. People seem to love silver bullets, whether it be St. John hoping for that new refinery to come to town that will fix its employment problems (it won't) forever, or toronto where people are convinced that we can either build subways for free with magic fairy dust (or, ermmm, private money), or we can put a speck of money on our rail corridors and suddenly have magic trains running across the GTA travelling exactly where people want them at 5 minute frequencies and ignoring CN and CP who largely own and use those corridors. Here's a hint: it won't work. There is no such thing as a silver bullet, and the solution to torontos problems isn't a billion here or there on some rail line that runs to nowhere, but a mixed solution using the rail lines to move people between specific hubs and spending a substantial (and required) amount to build subways BRTs and LRTs to get people around locally. There is no single fix, the solution is a mix of small fixes that add up to a giant patch. As soon as people realize this, the faster we can move on and stop infighting over why the hell we aren't building the magic bullet solution instead of the stuff that actually works.
Also, it is well known that it will take around a billion to bring each go corridor up to all day 2 way service, and about another billion to electrify the services. So in short, for $1.5 billion you could get about 3/4 of a songle go line electrified and but at HOURLY frequencies. Costs more if you want more frequency, so pony it up.
The bottom line is that there is no magical cheap transit solution to Torontos problems. People seem to love silver bullets, whether it be St. John hoping for that new refinery to come to town that will fix its employment problems (it won't) forever, or toronto where people are convinced that we can either build subways for free with magic fairy dust (or, ermmm, private money), or we can put a speck of money on our rail corridors and suddenly have magic trains running across the GTA travelling exactly where people want them at 5 minute frequencies and ignoring CN and CP who largely own and use those corridors. Here's a hint: it won't work. There is no such thing as a silver bullet, and the solution to torontos problems isn't a billion here or there on some rail line that runs to nowhere, but a mixed solution using the rail lines to move people between specific hubs and spending a substantial (and required) amount to build subways BRTs and LRTs to get people around locally. There is no single fix, the solution is a mix of small fixes that add up to a giant patch. As soon as people realize this, the faster we can move on and stop infighting over why the hell we aren't building the magic bullet solution instead of the stuff that actually works.
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diminutive
Active Member
Many of them do, though. The Georgetown corridor would conceivably provide good service to North-Western Toronto. More over, and this point is really important; the majority of any line's ridership will transfer from park-n-ride lots or surface transit, not walk-in ridership.
While that may not mean you can just put a line anywhere and expect it to be popular, there is a bit more nuance in terms of exact station location and considerations like potential surface transfers are more important than directly serving a modest cluster of density.
I don't think it's being presented as a 'magic bullet' or a situation where sprinkling pennies on the rail corridors will turn us into Paris. Most advocates of greater rail corridor utilization have been pretty clear that it would involve substantial costs. The most recent one was calling for 10s of billions of dollars as I recall.
And yes, RER-ifying a corridor like Richmond Hill is a bit ridiculous given it's basic course.
Nonetheless, if you compare Toronto with European or Japanese cities, the most obvious difference in our transit networks is the lack of frequent commuter rail service. We all look at London or Berlin and think 'wow, what a cool subway network!' while ignoring the FAR larger train networks which bring commuters into and out of those cities every day.
LRTs and BRTs and whatever are great and what not, but at the end of the day they're both marketing terms to make local transit more efficient. That's not meant to be a slight since marginal improvements to the local transit network will probably yield great results. There are limits to what steps like all door boarding, transit priority and prepaid fares can achieve though. And that's really what those terms mean in Toronto.
More radial lines are essential and would improve the operation of surface transit as well. Yet tunnelling a second "U" from Rexdale to Malvern via downtown would be so obviously cost-prohibitive it's a nonstarter. It wouldn't be free, but using existing corridors would be far more affordable.
christiesplits
Senior Member
Does anyone reckon the DRL will be a big campaign plank in the next provincial election? Recent provincial polls show that the 416 could have some of the tightest 3-way races in memory, especially in York and Scarborough.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Depends if the election is for the spring budget or not. Looking at how high the PCs are polling currently (I.E. having a major chance of pulling out a victory) I doubt the NDP will call an election this spring, meaning it might get the go ahead. as soon as those taxes get through the Liberals can brag about their transit file, there is simply no way the PCs or the NDP could match the sheer amount of projects that would be going on with the money. This spring I expect Hudak to sit it out like he always does calling for an election and refusing to negotiate, and the NDP putting up a huge stink and getting lots of concessions (I wouldn't be surprised if a corporate tax hike becomes part of the funding model because of them, which I actually agree with), but eventually passing it. If they do shoot the Liberals down for whatever reason, they will go to the polls and the liberals will campaign not just on the DRL, but all of the transit projects in the Big Move. It will certainly be useful to them to be able to go to every riding in the GTA and show them how there is a project nearby that the liberals will build. Hudak will probably be campaigning on the Sheppard subway and the Yonge extension, ignoring the DRL, so when the liberals can show a list of 15 different projects across the GTA vs. hudaks 2 or 3, They will likely dominate on the transit front. The question remains whether or not people will be turned off the funding solution for the projects, or if people will accept the tax to get the projects.
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Good analysis. I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals dangle some money in Ottawa and Kitchener-Waterloo for the next phase of their LRT systems. Ottawa's Western LRT extension just went into EA, so by next year they could be looking for funding on the $950 million price tag. Ottawa-West Nepean (my riding) happens to be one of the tightest ridings in Eastern Ontario, and is currently held by Bob Chiarelli. The Western LRT extension is primarily in this riding, so a Liberal running there could pledge support for the project and pick up quite a bit of support.
I'm sure there are many other ridings outside of the GTA in a similar situation.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I wouldn't be surprised if they pull an "opt in" for the tax increases the GTA are getting for certain municipalities to allow their transit projects to go through. the next phase of the Kitchener LRT is to replace the BRT portion they are currently building, which would be quite pointless as it would be closing for conversion as soon as it opens.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Then why are they building it in the first place?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
because there A) isn't enough money for it and B) there isn't demand for LRT. the LRT is going to run from the Fairview Park Mall to the Conestoga Mall, and the BRT from the Fairview Park Mall to Downtown Galt. they planned the LRT to replace it 25 years down the road, not 5.
DKsan
Active Member
To be fair, it's not a proper BRT, but just a slightly better version of the existing 200 aBRT, with same branding as the LRT (ION), actual queue jump measures, and stop design the same design standard as the LRT stops.
It's essentially a measure because the existing 200 route drops drastically in ridership south of Fairview Park Mall, so they can't warrant the full LRT extension.
It's essentially a measure because the existing 200 route drops drastically in ridership south of Fairview Park Mall, so they can't warrant the full LRT extension.
I'd like Ottawa to opt into that as well. It would pretty much pay for every LRT extension from here to whenever. It would be about $170 million/year for Ottawa, which is ~2km of LRT every year (not saying it would be phased like that, but that's what it works out to).
ssiguy2
Senior Member
London will be looking for some cash for it's BRT system as well and it will be hard to deny them when KWC and Hamilton are getting money.
London is also very fluid where the Liberals had the London West seat, the Tories thought they were going to get the seat and turns out the NDP got the seat.
London is also very fluid where the Liberals had the London West seat, the Tories thought they were going to get the seat and turns out the NDP got the seat.