[afransen]

While the primary purpose of the DRL was to provide passenger relief on Line 1, I believe that the longer alignment of OL allows it to have an expanded scope. It will provide a lot more access to places that aren't connected to the Rapid Transit network.

Additionally I hope that we can get out of the mindset of "let's build this to relieve crowding on this", while certainly a necessary consideration. We should be building to connect more people to transit, and as a side effect, it creates a more resilient network that relieves crowding and congestion.

I think the discourse is already transitioning to decongesting roads vs decongesting existing transit. I think we may not be sufficiently explaining the Downes-Thomson Paradox in our transit planning/investments in that average speed seems to be a secondary consideration rather than the primary mechanism for decongesting roads.

 

[crs1026]

I think the discourse is already transitioning to decongesting roads vs decongesting existing transit. I think we may not be sufficiently explaining the Downes-Thomson Paradox in our transit planning/investments in that average speed seems to be a secondary consideration rather than the primary mechanism for decongesting roads.

In this respect, the Ontario Line in its extended form is a wonderful win-win - it will decongest Line 1 (as the DRL was planned to do) but it will also compete for travel time with the DVP much more effectively.

Line 1 has never really been a competitor to the DVP because the time spent getting over to Yonge by bus, plus its slow pace, made the car more attractive. The Ontario Line improves on that substantially for anyone within reacch of the DVP.

To my mind, the worst thing about DRL was its timid pennypinching division into an Osgoode-Danforth Phase I (which met the decongest Line 1 objective but did nothing to add ridership from the northeast) and a may-never-get-built Phase II that reached further north.

Adding the west-of-Osgoode stretch opened up even more time competitiveness compared to transferring to streetcars for the last 500 meters of travel.

I hate to say it, but I have to tip my hat to the Ford approach - think big, and commit to the whole project. Who would have thought?

- Paul

 

[Rainforest]

OL is a desperately needed project, and will be very well used. It is great that Phase 1 goes all the way to Eglinton, rather than just to Danforth / Line 2.

Still, I would build with larger trains / stations to make it more future-proof.

And the western segment (west of University or Spadina) could be moved to Phase 2, to free some funds for larger trains and stations.

If and when the western segment is added, I'd rather stay under Queen, instead of diverting south to the Exhibition. A line under Queen would provide more coverage for the same cost, and more choices of routing further west.

The Exhibition route isn't terrible, but is not optimal IMO.

 

[ARG1]

OL is a desperately needed project, and will be very well used. It is great that Phase 1 goes all the way to Eglinton, rather than just to Danforth / Line 2.

Still, I would build with larger trains / stations to make it more future-proof.

And the western segment (west of University or Spadina) could be moved to Phase 2, to free some funds for larger trains and stations.

If and when the western segment is added, I'd rather stay under Queen, instead of diverting south to the Exhibition. A line under Queen would provide more coverage for the same cost, and more choices of routing further west.

The Exhibition route isn't terrible, but is not optimal IMO.

I think the deal with the western segment is it might be easier to add due to the Exhibition grounds providing a good place to extract TBMs. Ignoring the benefit of allowing LSW passengers to leave and not overcrowd Union (a topic that has been discussed to death), how do you end the line at Osgoode? Do you have to extract the TBM in a painful process that tears open downtown even more, or do you pull a 2nd Avenue Subway and just leave the TBM underground until you build that western extension?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think the deal with the western segment is it might be easier to add due to the Exhibition grounds providing a good place to extract TBMs. Ignoring the benefit of allowing LSW passengers to leave and not overcrowd Union (a topic that has been discussed to death), how do you end the line at Osgoode? Do you have to extract the TBM in a painful process that tears open downtown even more, or do you pull a 2nd Avenue Subway and just leave the TBM underground until you build that western extension?

They will have to do that at Osgoode regardless. I still think West Queen West to Roncy was a better option.

 

[adys123]

They will have to do that at Osgoode regardless. I still think West Queen West to Roncy was a better option.

Taking a TBM out of the ground during active construction is much easier than doing that afterwards...

 

[ARG1]

They will have to do that at Osgoode regardless. I still think West Queen West to Roncy was a better option.

I thought at Osgoode they're only building a small shaft to move equipment around, whilst the bulk of the station will be mined. There is a big difference between extracting excavators and equipment vs extracting entire TBMs. This isn't like Sheppard-McCowan where the station will be Cut and Cover, and thus they can use the station box as a launch shaft for the TBM.

 

[Rainforest]

I think the deal with the western segment is it might be easier to add due to the Exhibition grounds providing a good place to extract TBMs. Ignoring the benefit of allowing LSW passengers to leave and not overcrowd Union (a topic that has been discussed to death), how do you end the line at Osgoode? Do you have to extract the TBM in a painful process that tears open downtown even more, or do you pull a 2nd Avenue Subway and just leave the TBM underground until you build that western extension?

Good point, maybe neither Osgood nor Spadina / Queen is a good interim terminus.

Still would prefer to continue straight west under Queen to the first suitable extraction point. But if the southern route results in an easier extraction somehow, that's a material factor.

Although the extraction won't happen at the Exhibition grounds. OL will surface somewhere near Strachan Ave, and then run next to the LSW rail corridor.

 

[afransen]

Realistically, contracts are executed and construction has begun on the project as designed. I think it is very unlikely we will see any substantive changes such as alignment or train length.

 

[Rainforest]

Realistically, contracts are executed and construction has begun on the project as designed. I think it is very unlikely we will see any substantive changes such as alignment or train length.

Definitely, that ship has sailed. No changes at this point.

The debate is about the quality of choices already made.

 

[smallspy]

I thought at Osgoode they're only building a small shaft to move equipment around, whilst the bulk of the station will be mined. There is a big difference between extracting excavators and equipment vs extracting entire TBMs. This isn't like Sheppard-McCowan where the station will be Cut and Cover, and thus they can use the station box as a launch shaft for the TBM.

You need to read the plans and presentations more closely. Metrolinx has been not shy about stating that part of the need for a large excavation at Osgoode is to remove the TBMs arriving from the west.

Dan

 

[Rainforest]

You need to read the plans and presentations more closely. Metrolinx has been not shy about stating that part of the need for a large excavation at Osgoode is to remove the TBMs arriving from the west.

Dan

Interesting, I didn't know that.

But then how are they going to build the section between Osgood and Strachan Ave? Another TBM from the west side?

 

[Voltz]

Interesting, I didn't know that.

But then how are they going to build the section between Osgood and Strachan Ave? Another TBM from the west side?

Can't cut and cover underneath buildings.,

But I do think it is odd they won't just run the TBM's straight through from the Don to Strachan.

 

[GenerationW]

So now it's 20+ years down the road from 2008?

Which Plan? It was in the province's 2008 Regional Transportation Plan (The Big Move), developed in consultation with the city, and approved by council - with the caveat that the DRL be expedited.

City favours relief line over subway

Toronto council wants a proposed TTC "relief line" – which could run south from Donlands or Pape station to downtown and connect to the west side of the Bloor subway – made a priority over extending the Yonge line into York Region.

www.thestar.com

The article doesn't negate anything I said. Again, this council motion was clearly introduced by David Miller in reaction to York Region's rapid 2008 momentum pushing the Yonge extension. And Giambrone said what he said about no DRL being possible until after TC was complete, however long that may have taken.

Miller loving the DRL is a strange hill for you to die on considering he allocated exactly $0 (out of $12 billion) to the DRL when he had the opportunity to do so.

 

[junctionist]

David Miller and then-TTC chair Adam Giambrone dropped the ball on building a downtown relief line. They could have prioritized it but decided that the Transit City LRT plan they came up with was more important and worthy of their time.