[nfitz]

ridership jumps 1,200 PPHD... where are you getting lower ridership numbers from? The DRL really only makes sense south of Bloor, period. There are very few viable subway corridors in this city in general, if you are using the 10,000 PPHD cut off that is generally considered the standard.

For just Option 2A (subway to Bloor), Table 4-3 on page 78 of the PDF shows the DRL eastbound, east of Sherbourne having a demand of 13,600 people per hour. When the subway is extended to Eglinton (Option 2B) on Table 4-5 on page 83 of the PDF, it shows the DRL eastbound, east of Sherbourne having the demand of only 12,900 people per hour.

That's 700 PPHD less people riding downtown on the DRL, if you extent it to Eglinton. Not sure where your getting the 1,200 PPHD increase (though I'm sure the screwy numbers show it somewhere!)

 

[innsertnamehere]

2A included the western extension of the DRL to Dundas West, which boosts ridership. 2B is without the Western extension. You have to look at option 3, which projects ridership of 14,900. my numbers were comparing option 2B to option 1. (DRL from St. Andrew to Don Mills vs. DRL from St. Andrew to Pape)

 

[nfitz]

2A included the western extension of the DRL to Dundas West, which boosts ridership. 2B is without the Western extension. You have to look at option 3, which projects ridership of 14,900. my numbers were comparing option 2B to option 1. (DRL from St. Andrew to Don Mills vs. DRL from St. Andrew to Pape)

Ah, I see. I'd have to compare 3 to 2A or 2B to 1, not 2B to 2A.

What bizarre numbering.

Still, I have my doubts about the study, given the Richmond Hill/Eglinton station ... and the lack of a Don Mills LRT.

 

[mk-j]

I always thought it would be great for the city to have the DRL run from Fairview Mall, south down Don Mills, past the Shops at Don Mills and the Science Centre, before somehow getting across the Don Valley to cut back to Yonge via Queen in some way. An advantage of this setup is that the DRL could be integrated with the existing Sheppard subway to be the same subway line, no transfer needed. The Sheppard subway stub would then be a bit more useful since the chances of ever building the Sheppard subway eastward are pretty slim.

 

[JasonParis]

Subway "branches" are quite foreign to our system. I've sometimes wondered from the opposite end of Sheppard if it would have made more sense if every third #1 Line train headed to Don Mills instead of Finch.

 

[ksun]

Subway "branches" are quite foreign to our system. I've sometimes wondered from the opposite end of Sheppard if it would have made more sense if every third #1 Line train headed to Don Mills instead of Finch.

yeah, I thought about it often too. The Yonge line can totally run to Don Mills. In fact, we should consider the sheppard line as a spur instead of line 4 (a line 4 with 5 stations is embarrassing as well). And if Yonge/Bloor is the bottleneck, why can't we run the west bound BD line directly to downtown during rush hours, like we did before?

Toronto doesn't seem to be capable of thinking creatively.
yeah, people will get "confused", but other cities do that all the time. It is not really some intelligent challenging task. As long as the signs are clear, people will learn to take the right train.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Subway "branches" are quite foreign to our system. I've sometimes wondered from the opposite end of Sheppard if it would have made more sense if every third #1 Line train headed to Don Mills instead of Finch.

I don't think so. Imagine the crowds of people on the platform who want to go to Finch but are forced go wait for the next train so that a few people can go to Don Mills. It's a bad setup.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I always thought it would be great for the city to have the DRL run from Fairview Mall, south down Don Mills, past the Shops at Don Mills and the Science Centre, before somehow getting across the Don Valley to cut back to Yonge via Queen in some way. An advantage of this setup is that the DRL could be integrated with the existing Sheppard subway to be the same subway line, no transfer needed. The Sheppard subway stub would then be a bit more useful since the chances of ever building the Sheppard subway eastward are pretty slim.

This has been proposed before, but it's not a very practical plan. You'd need a massive loop east of Don Mills station to align the tracks with Don Mills road.

Also this configuration won't work with the SELRT. The SELRT station at Don Mills will occupy the southern tracks at Don Mills Station. There'll be no opportunity to extend the subway because of it.

 

[ehlow]

Subway "branches" are quite foreign to our system. I've sometimes wondered from the opposite end of Sheppard if it would have made more sense if every third #1 Line train headed to Don Mills instead of Finch.

Let's say every 3rd train goes to the Sheppard line instead of to Finch:

Our Yonge line is currently operating at maximum frequency given our signalling system & other constraints. If 1/3rd of the trains go to Sheppard instead, those using the Yonge line north of Sheppard would get 2/3rds of max frequency, which is 33% less trains than the current service. Every time you branch you split the # of trains so the service level decreases on both branches.

 

[ehlow]

This has been proposed before, but it's not a very practical plan. You'd need a massive loop east of Don Mills station to align the tracks with Don Mills road.

Also this configuration won't work with the SELRT. The SELRT station at Don Mills will occupy the southern tracks at Don Mills Station. There'll be no opportunity to extend the subway because of it.

Agreed. While I'd like to see DRL eventually go to Sheppard & Don Mills, I personally feel this is part of some desire to connect short lines together when looking at a map. Similar to the unexplainable desire to "close the loops" because "it just makes sense". I'm not a fan of closing loops for no reason lol. Not everything needs to be connected or a loop so that the map can look better in some instinctual way.

 

[gweed123]

Let's say every 3rd train goes to the Sheppard line instead of to Finch:

Our Yonge line is currently operating at maximum frequency given our signalling system & other constraints. If 1/3rd of the trains go to Sheppard instead, those using the Yonge line north of Sheppard would get 2/3rds of max frequency, which is 33% less trains than the current service. Every time you branch you split the # of trains so the service level decreases on both branches.

It would only really make sense if the North Yonge extension is built, because half the trains are scheduled to short turn at Finch anyway once the extension opens. Swap that short turn for a branch on Sheppard, and it may work.

Of course, any branching onto Sheppard would require the platforms to be extended to accommodate 6 car trains (which they were built for, but were shortened to 4 car trains).

 

[nfitz]

I always thought it would be great for the city to have the DRL run from Fairview Mall, south down Don Mills, past the Shops at Don Mills and the Science Centre, before somehow getting across the Don Valley to cut back to Yonge via Queen in some way. An advantage of this setup is that the DRL could be integrated with the existing Sheppard subway to be the same subway line, no transfer needed. The Sheppard subway stub would then be a bit more useful since the chances of ever building the Sheppard subway eastward are pretty slim.

It would be convenient, but as recent regular 25 user ... it's pretty clear that the ridership north of Eglinton is quite lower south of Eglinton. And then it really drops when you get north of Lawrence. There should be rapid transit on Don Mills/Pape, but in the north you can only justify LRT. And in the south you need subway. There has to be a point where it transitions. And the Eglinton line seems a reasonable place to do this.

 

[gweed123]

It would be convenient, but as recent regular 25 user ... it's pretty clear that the ridership north of Eglinton is quite lower south of Eglinton. And then it really drops when you get north of Lawrence. There should be rapid transit on Don Mills/Pape, but in the north you can only justify LRT. And in the south you need subway. There has to be a point where it transitions. And the Eglinton line seems a reasonable place to do this.

To me it makes more sense to build it as BRT north of Eglinton instead of LRT, that way it can be pushed further north, beyond Sheppard, than it could with LRT. Would also be dirt cheap because the lanes are already there, just need some paint and some fancy shelters.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I always thought it would be great for the city to have the DRL run from Fairview Mall, south down Don Mills, past the Shops at Don Mills and the Science Centre, before somehow getting across the Don Valley to cut back to Yonge via Queen in some way. An advantage of this setup is that the DRL could be integrated with the existing Sheppard subway to be the same subway line, no transfer needed. The Sheppard subway stub would then be a bit more useful since the chances of ever building the Sheppard subway eastward are pretty slim.

It would be convenient, but as recent regular 25 user ... it's pretty clear that the ridership north of Eglinton is quite lower south of Eglinton. And then it really drops when you get north of Lawrence. There should be rapid transit on Don Mills/Pape, but in the north you can only justify LRT. And in the south you need subway. There has to be a point where it transitions. And the Eglinton line seems a reasonable place to do this.

To me it makes more sense to build it as BRT north of Eglinton instead of LRT, that way it can be pushed further north, beyond Sheppard, than it could with LRT. Would also be dirt cheap because the lanes are already there, just need some paint and some fancy shelters.

Here's why DRL east is planned as a subway: The bus routes on Don Mills looks like a lot, but I can tell you niftz is right and ridership does drop off after lawrence. Here is the don mills ridership:

25 Don Mills 38,000

But here's the thing: like the Yonge University line, the subway would be successful because of the bus routes feeding it, not the immediate density in the area. Look at the bus routes that cross Don Mills Road:
34 Eglinton East 29,500
54 Lawrence East 36,300
95 York Mills 24,700

This would provide massive relief to the Yonge line simply by picking up most of these riders at Don Mills rather then have then travel into downtown on the Yonge line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And if you want to bring it to Don Mills-Finch:
39 Finch East,139 Finch-Don Mills, and 199 Finch Rocket 44,000