[AlvinofDiaspar]

And you believe them? They said the same thing in the mid 80s.

If (big if) the DRL even gets off the ground, Phase I probably won't go north of Eglinton, while Phase II will probably extend the line west. While planning can huff and puff about sending it all the way north, politicking will ensure it won't.

And my taxes thank the politicians for that!

I know if I don't believe in anything, nothing will get built. I don't get all hung up on phasing as much as the need to get started. Once the ball gets rolling on the project, there will be calls to extend and that's 10x easier politically. Not going to win the battle and lose the war on this one.

Getting RL built will definitely be worth the first born child, and probably even the soul as well.

AoD

 

[minilude]

If we

Actually, the Relief Line to Eglinton is likely the worst performing part of the Relief Line. The way the Relief Line works is by diverting commuters on surface routes in eastern Toronto away from the Yonge Line. The issue with bringing the Relief Line to Eglinton is that, because of the geography of the area, there are only a few Yonge-bound bus routes that the Relief Line could intersect, all of whom have relatively low ridership. The only major route the Relief Line to Eglinton would intercept is the Eglinton Line, and that's a line of only 5,400 pphpd. Even if the line diverted a third of Eglinton Line riders away from Yonge, that'd only be diverting about 1,000 people.

That's why I think a lawrence terminus might be better. You can re-route the TTC buses on York Mills to Lawrence if there were a station, just same as some Finch buses are going towards Don Mills station currently.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Actually, the Relief Line to Eglinton is likely the worst performing part of the Relief Line. The way the Relief Line works is by diverting commuters on surface routes in eastern Toronto away from the Yonge Line. The issue with bringing the Relief Line to Eglinton is that, because of the geography of the area, there are only a few Yonge-bound bus routes that the Relief Line could intersect, all of whom have relatively low ridership. The only major route the Relief Line to Eglinton would intercept is the Eglinton Line, and that's a line of only 5,400 pphpd. Even if the line diverted a third of Eglinton Line riders away from Yonge, that'd only be diverting about 1,000 people.

Here's a list of the routes the Relief Line to Sheppard and Eglinton would connect to, with routes moving over 10,000 people per day bolded. The Eglinton to Sheppard portion connects to twice as many TTC routes and the Danforth to Eglinton section. This also doesn't include York Regional Transit connections at Don Mills.

Relief Line to Sheppard:
4 Sheppard
25 Don Mills
85 Sheppard East
54 Lawrence West
95 York Mills
190 Scarborough Centre Rocket
122 Graydon Hall
223 Victoria Park North
139 Finch-Don Mills
139 Huntingwood
167 Pharmacy
10 Van Horne
162 Lawrence-Donway

Relief Line to Eglinton:
5 Eglinton Line
25 Don Mills
100 Flemingdon Park
87 Cosburn
88 South Leaside
56 Leaside
62 Mortimer

 

[Filip]

I know if I don't believe in anything, nothing will get built. I don't get all hung up on phasing as much as the need to get started. Once the ball gets rolling on the project, there will be calls to extend and that's 10x easier politically. Not going to win the battle and lose the war on this one.

AoD

Is it easier to extend once built? Sheppard and Eglinton say hi.

Whatever ends up getting built in Phase I will suck up so many transit dollars that the city won't have the appetite to do anything else for a long time. So, selfishly I hope it fails, so there's some dollars available elsewhere. Instead of northeast Toronto.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If we

That's why I think a lawrence terminus might be better. You can re-route the TTC buses on York Mills to Lawrence if there were a station, just same as some Finch buses are going towards Don Mills station currently.

Sheppard-Don Mills Station would have several more bus connections than Lawrence would. Including the Sheppard Subway, Sheppard LRT, Scarborough Centre Rocket, 54 Lawrence East, all of whom are among the TTC's most used routes, and several regional connections with GO and YRT. The only major route Lawrence Station would connect to is the 54 Lawrence East. Not connecting this to a major regional hub and one of our most used subway stations makes no sense.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Is it easier to extend once built? Sheppard and Eglinton say hi.

Whatever ends up getting built in Phase I will suck up so many transit dollars that the city won't have the appetite to do anything else for a long time. So, selfishly I hope it fails, so there's some dollars available elsewhere. Instead of northeast Toronto.

Little real demand on Sheppard. Kind of different from an RL extending straight from the core. Besides, it isn't like not spending money at x = money for y either - and like it or hate it, Etobicoke will need allies to get stuff built.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I know if I don't believe in anything, nothing will get built. I don't get all hung up on phasing as much as the need to get started. Once the ball gets rolling on the project, there will be calls to extend and that's 10x easier politically. Not going to win the battle and lose the war on this one.

Getting RL built will definitely be worth the first born child, and probably even the soul as well.

AoD

Remember, this thing will have the same usage as the Yonge Line on day 1. It's the biggest transit no brainer in the city.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Relief line long (to Sheppard) would cost how much? Close to $10bn?

That'll suck up any transit funding for the foreseeable future, as Toronto will be footing quite a chunk of the bill. Forget DRL West, additional LRTs, TTC improvements.. For at least the next 20 years.

That's why I'm against it.

The Relief Line extension north from Danforth to Sheppard will cost $4.3 Billion. Total line cost is $7.8 Billion.

 

[minilude]

of course Sheppard option will have more buses connected. It's just not to an extent that will crash the Yonge line. If there is intensification in the Sheppard East Corridor (there is plan but seems the city is flip flop on it) then it definitely needs to go up to Sheppard

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Little real demand on Sheppard. Kind of different from an RL extending straight from the core. Besides, it isn't like not spending money at x = money for y either - and like it or hate it, Etobicoke will need allies to get stuff built.

AoD

of course Sheppard option will have more buses connected. It's just not to an extent that will crash the Yonge line. If there is intensification in the Sheppard East Corridor (there is plan but seems the city is flip flop on it) then it definitely needs to go up to Sheppard

The line doesn't serve demand on Sheppard, but rather it serves demand from bus routes that intersect the line. Remember, almost all subway demand outside of the downtown core comes from bus-to-subway transfers. Whether or not there is demand on Sheppard isn't particularly relevant. This is how the Relief Line Long, with somewhere upwards of 40 surface connections, can have nearly twice the peak hour ridership as the Relief Line U (to Dundas West), which travels through some of the densest areas in Toronto.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

But what's phase II then? Further north, or west?

Luckily, the political climate will ensure something goes west before it goes all the way north. That's how things have been done for the last 100 years, and that's how they'll continue. Thank goodness for that. Otherwise what, my taxes go up for others to have a stress free commute? Gotta be selfish in a city with very, very finite funds.

The Relief Line to Sheppard is a North York and Scarborough subway. Historical precedent says that North York and Scarborough gets subways.

 

[minilude]

@tiger, Your list of bus connection will be

Relief Line to Sheppard:
4 Sheppard
25 Don Mills (this will be splitted if the station is at Shops at Don Mills?)
85 Sheppard East
190 Scarborough Centre Rocket


Relief Line to Lawrence:
54 Lawrence West
95 York Mills
5 Eglinton Line
25 Don Mills
100 Flemingdon Park

doesn't look too bad..

 

[TheTigerMaster]

@tiger, Your list of bus connection will be

Relief Line to Sheppard:
4 Sheppard
25 Don Mills (this will be splitted if the station is at Shops at Don Mills?)
85 Sheppard East
190 Scarborough Centre Rocket


Relief Line to Lawrence:
54 Lawrence West
95 York Mills
5 Eglinton Line
25 Don Mills
100 Flemingdon Park

doesn't look too bad..

What exactly is the motivation for not bringing it to Sheppard? Lawrence East is far less developed than Sheppard.

(And you need to consider the regional GO and YRT connections too)

 

[minilude]

The line doesn't serve demand on Sheppard, but rather it serves demand from bus routes that intersect the line. Remember, almost all subway demand outside of the downtown core comes from bus-to-subway transfers. Whether or not there is demand on Sheppard isn't particularly relevant.

Doesn't the passenger flows from the bus connections at Sheppard/Don Mills need to hop on the Sheppard subway before they reach Yonge? I'm not aware of other flows pouring onto Yonge Line from Don Mills/Sheppard without using Sheppard subway..maybe I'm wrong

The Sheppard/Yonge station is not too busy that needs diversion? last time I was at this station it was a while ago.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Doesn't the passenger flows from the bus connections at Sheppard/Don Mills need to hop on the Sheppard subway before they reach Yonge? I'm not aware of other flows pouring onto Yonge Line from Don Mills/Sheppard without using Sheppard subway..maybe I'm wrong

Basically a lot of people in York Region and eastern Toronto use the Sheppard Line to connect to the Yonge Line to then get downtown. This contributes significantly to Yonge Line crowding. The Relief Line would be about 50% faster for downtown bound trips from Don Mills Station than travelling via Sheppard Line and Line 1, so a lot of these commuters would use the Relief Line rater than the Sheppard and Yonge Lines.