The REAL said:
The mini downtowns are actually coming back. Before Toronto was amalgamated, Each borough had their own city halls, which turned into government resource buildings. But recently Scarborough's "downtown" has been coming alive, with the help of the new subway stop helping with the developement. Etobicoke has a weird thing going on where they almonst have 2 downtowns developing, one at six points, and one at park lawn around the soon to be Mimico GO station. That site actually makes more sense since there's a way to get where you need to go and not just have it be a dead end area with nothing to do. East York and York have basically been absorbed by Metro Toronto and Etobicoke. The new downtown that's being created from scratch (downtown east) will be at East Harbor, which will connect with the Ontario line, GO & TTC.
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yep, the six points redevelopment has yet to actually begin so I can't be too critical of what I have not seen, but imo it will always fall behind Humber Bay Shores for a variety of reasons. Firstly, transit connections are not as great, yes six points is directly next to Kipling station, but that is the western terminus of the line. Any trips west will be made on relatively infrequent TTC/Miway buses into what is essentially suburban sprawl and very pedestrian unfriendly. This could be helped by a Line 2 extension to sherway gardens (along with its redevelopment), but that is not being built anytime soon. Kipling station also includes a GO station of the Milton Line, though I have not used it once in 10+ years of living in the area as service on the Milton line is terrible and that is not changing.

Humber Bay Shores has a lot going for it. Right off the bat, directly on the lake and the great parkland is a huge draw. It is being built besides pretty solid existing urban form in Mimico and New Toronto, and these neighborhoods are also now experiencing a huge amount of growth. Residents of new towers at HBS will not feel they are stuck on an island surronded by uninteresting single family home neighborhoods, as is the case at six points. To the east, either by frequent GO service or the 501 streetcar with new exclusive row up to Park Lawn, brings you to Parkdale and the downtown core, and to the west growing neighborhoods with some of the best historical urban form in the boroughs are literally ten minutes away.

I imagine Six points will grow, but will be a more stale government area, whereas HBS will be the cultural and economic hub of Etobicoke.
 
jmi22 said:
yep, the six points redevelopment has yet to actually begin so I can't be too critical of what I have not seen, but imo it will always fall behind Humber Bay Shores for a variety of reasons. Firstly, transit connections are not as great, yes six points is directly next to Kipling station, but that is the western terminus of the line. Any trips west will be made on relatively infrequent TTC/Miway buses into what is essentially suburban sprawl and very pedestrian unfriendly. This could be helped by a Line 2 extension to sherway gardens (along with its redevelopment), but that is not being built anytime soon. Kipling station also includes a GO station of the Milton Line, though I have not used it once in 10+ years of living in the area as service on the Milton line is terrible and that is not changing.

Humber Bay Shores has a lot going for it. Right off the bat, directly on the lake and the great parkland is a huge draw. It is being built besides pretty solid existing urban form in Mimico and New Toronto, and these neighborhoods are also now experiencing a huge amount of growth. Residents of new towers at HBS will not feel they are stuck on an island surronded by uninteresting single family home neighborhoods, as is the case at six points. To the east, either by frequent GO service or the 501 streetcar with new exclusive row up to Park Lawn, brings you to Parkdale and the downtown core, and to the west growing neighborhoods with some of the best historical urban form in the boroughs are literally ten minutes away.

I imagine Six points will grow, but will be a more stale government area, whereas HBS will be the cultural and economic hub of Etobicoke.
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I think it would be logical to connect the two. Kipling is the bigger transit hub TODAY and HBS has no adequate transit right now. When that changes, they can grow in tandem. Seems to be at least conceptually part of the future OL extensions.
 
jmi22 said:
Humber Bay Shores has a lot going for it. Right off the bat, directly on the lake and the great parkland is a huge draw. It is being built besides pretty solid existing urban form in Mimico and New Toronto, and these neighborhoods are also now experiencing a huge amount of growth. Residents of new towers at HBS will not feel they are stuck on an island surronded by uninteresting single family home neighborhoods, as is the case at six points. To the east, either by frequent GO service or the 501 streetcar with new exclusive row up to Park Lawn, brings you to Parkdale and the downtown core, and to the west growing neighborhoods with some of the best historical urban form in the boroughs are literally ten minutes away.

I imagine Six points will grow, but will be a more stale government area, whereas HBS will be the cultural and economic hub of Etobicoke.
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HBS is now twenty-five years old and still growing. It has the lakeshore going for it - and actually, the City did a good job with the landfill and natural park areas - but that aside it is a sterile and underserviced development with inadequate amenities and a longstanding but as yet unfulfilled promise of proper transit. It has grown to the point where the road netwok has congealed. One good bike path along the Lakeshore but minimal connectivity up the Humber or even to Bloor.
The density has now overtaken the available amenities, with the Christies Land project yet to come.
In my view it’s a fail (if you judge projects to the standard of proactive city building) or at best a glass half full (thankfully, no one has proposed developing out into the lake….yet….).
I agree, it has more potential than Six Points ever will have…. But the fails were avoidable, and I would not hold it up as an example of anything. The City should have done better, I mean—- so many years…..

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
HBS is now twenty-five years old and still growing. It has the lakeshore going for it - and actually, the City did a good job with the landfill and natural park areas - but that aside it is a sterile and underserviced development with inadequate amenities and a longstanding but as yet unfulfilled promise of proper transit. It has grown to the point where the road netwok has congealed. One good bike path along the Lakeshore but minimal connectivity up the Humber or even to Bloor.
The density has now overtaken the available amenities, with the Christies Land project yet to come.
In my view it’s a fail (if you judge projects to the standard of proactive city building) or at best a glass half full (thankfully, no one has proposed developing out into the lake….yet….).
I agree, it has more potential than Six Points ever will have…. But the fails were avoidable, and I would not hold it up as an example of anything. The City should have done better, I mean—- so many years…..

- Paul
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you are correct. The city, as per usual, failed in any way to accommodate the massive population boom they knew was going to occur in HBS. The 501 streetcar should have had its exclusive right of way extended to ATLEAST Park Lawn Road as the first motel was being torn down to put up condos, so that the improved transit was there before the first residents arrived. Now it will have to wait for the Park Lawn GO site to be completed and im sure will be mired in opposition from the thousands of HBS residents who now own vehicles and will oppose removing space for inefficient private vehicles. In conjunction with the new Lakeshore row, the 'missing link' between exhibition loop and sunnyside should have been built 20 years ago in order to integrate the waterfront streetcar network. It is still currently in limbo due to the complete inaction from the area councilor, Gord Perks.

Lakeshore boulevard itself is a mess in off itself, with the very wide roadway around HBS being maintained as such, with no serious cycling infrastructure. This is despite the area being perhaps the easiest high density node in Toronto to implement proper cycle tracks, as Lakeshore is incredibly wide. Not ensuring the new builds on lakeshore built out sidewalk space for cycle tracks was another failure of the city planners.
 
Borehole drilling at Queen-Spadina

Crews are planning to conduct bole-hole drilling at three location close to the Queen-Spadina intersection over the coming weeks according to Metrolinx. They will be drilling to the depth of the planned construction of the Ontario Line and Queen-Spadina station apparently. There are planned lane closures in the area and there will be noise 9pm - 5 am.

Q_S_work.JPG
 
Sunnyside said:
I think it would be logical to connect the two. Kipling is the bigger transit hub TODAY and HBS has no adequate transit right now. When that changes, they can grow in tandem. Seems to be at least conceptually part of the future OL extensions.
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Definitely agree with this sentiment. The HBS is established for building out very fast, but the area is always crowded and traffic backed up.

The Kipling Station area is really fast growing with tons of proposals.

Ideally, I'd like to see the Ontario Line go west to HBS, then swing up north to meet the Kipling hub, which helps serve the 2 major centres of Etobicoke!
 
fanoftoronto said:
Definitely agree with this sentiment. The HBS is established for building out very fast, but the area is always crowded and traffic backed up.

The Kipling Station area is really fast growing with tons of proposals.

Ideally, I'd like to see the Ontario Line go west to HBS, then swing up north to meet the Kipling hub, which helps serve the 2 major centres of Etobicoke!
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That is the plan with the Ontario Line loop right now.
 
LemonCondo said:
"Not having transit ready before massive development" is classic Toronto. Just look at Queens Quay E, that thing is going to be full of condos by the time the streetcar comes in. I hope all those crazy proposals around Yonge and Steeles wait a bit longer until the subway is a few years out.
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Not only condos, but a bunch of office towers!
 
mossynukes said:
That is the plan with the Ontario Line loop right now.
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I haven't seen an alignment between Exhibition and Kipling; only beyond Kipling.

Though in some early studies, the study area turned north on Dufferin to King - but that doesn't preclude anything - other than curving south to Ontario Place.
 
nfitz said:
I haven't seen an alignment between Exhibition and Kipling; only beyond Kipling.

Though in some early studies, the study area turned north on Dufferin to King - but that doesn't preclude anything - other than curving south to Ontario Place.
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I think the only reason it isn’t there on the GGH 2051 map is because they don’t know what alignment they’d want to take, not that it won’t happen. Which is fair; look at the OL West thread and you’ll see no one can agree on where/how to go west- even when discussing the options for reaching Kipling.
 
Sunnyside said:
I think the only reason it isn’t there on the GGH 2051 map is because they don’t know what alignment they’d want to take, not that it won’t happen.
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That was kind of my point. I was responding to mossynukes who said the plan is to go through Humber Bay Shores - and I've not see any plan that shows that!

afransen said:
The OL Loop is just government crayoning at this point, and it sounds like the western part (between Exhibition and Pearson) is the most speculative.
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In terms of actually getting built, I think the OL section between Pearson and Vaughan might be even more speculative. Or perhaps the piece between Richmond Hill and Don Mills.
 
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nfitz said:
That was kind of my point. I was responding to mossynukes who said the plan is to go through Humber Bay Shores - and I've not see any plan that shows that!

Is there a 2051 map?

In terms of actually getting built, I think the OL section between Pearson and Vaughan might be even more speculative. Or perhaps the piece between Richmond Hill and Don Mills.
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Yes, there is - the 2051 GGH plan is a doc that came out about a year ago from the MTO/IO (not Metrolinx- the next RTP will tell us how much of this is “real” I suspect). It indicates exactly what your talking about- OL from Science Center to Don Mills, looping West via the 407 and down again to Pearson and then Kipling. It’s interlined with the (much more interesting imo) “interegional LRT” from Burlington to Oshawa, which is effectively a revised rail version of the 407 Transitway that follows the Mississauga busway via the 403 to Pearson instead of through Brampton.

As for what’s most/least viable, I’ll agree that your latter option- RH to Don Mills- is one of the weaker points. If anything, MCC-YYZ (followed by YYZ-VMC/YYZ-Kipling) is the strongest section of the bunch, and IMO should be prioritized as an independent line to start us off at some point soon if we want to actually build a massive 100km+ line this century. Obviously the issue is there are so many other things worth getting done first.
 
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