T3G said:
Uh, no it wasn't.

The groundbreaking for the project was November 9, 2011.


There was a groundbreaking ceremony for the Keelesdale station at a later date in 2016, yes, but that's not the same as groundbreaking for the whole project.

As for my point? I thought I articulated it plenty clear enough, but one more time for the people in the back: claiming that we should take the 2031 deadline for the OL seriously because "actually", the line has been in the works since 2020 and not 2022 is deliberate misrepresentation at best, propaganda at worst. Of course, it was never realistic for work to start on the line that early, as it was just the year prior that Ford had presented his back of the napkin drawings to the world in the first place. Pre-preparation work like property acquisition and utility relocation no more constitutes the start of the construction then the start of building construction being when the building that was there before was demolished. It is not fair to count that as part of the process, because you can acquire property easily and then not make any further progress on a project for years. It is only reasonable to count from when the actual project started work.

Considering the only people that so far have defended Metrolinx's timeline are those who are inclined to defend Metrolinx and the province at the slightest provocation, you'll forgive me for not feeling assured. If a neutral third party with the inside scoop would like to explain why I'm wrong, I am of course willing to listen.
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What would be your criteria for a neutral third part with inside scoop?
 
People here are hopeful that transit projects will get done quickly because they're transit fans. It isn't propaganda, and Metrolinx isn't planting undercover agents to spout their talking points. Realistically, the Ontario Line will finish late, as every public transit project in the English-speaking world in recent decades has. It's fine to say that without immediately getting on your (grating, at this point) political soapbox.

Just funny to read about "Metrolinx propagandists" when posters on this forum are nearly universally critical of ML and the province (and not unfairly so). I don't think we need T3G policing individual posters for suspected deviations from their preferred political positions. It's mean-spirited and derails threads pointlessly.
 
On a more neutral lighthearted note, I’m struggling to find a concrete reason why I have more faith in the team responsible for Ontario Line than the team responsible for Crosstown. Is it just cope? Is it too much hopeful thinking?

Even though Metrolinx ultimately takes the blame, the plot must be deeper than that. I hope one day an insider on the crosstown project writes a book about it.
 
@T3G

I understand your skepticism and take no real issue w/that; but I would suggest rolling back the personalization of that to other UT members.

It makes fruitful discussion challenging.

****

I generally avoid this thread as its one of those where people, tend to get unnecessarily heated and also to re litigate things.

****

T3G said:
If a neutral third party with the inside scoop would like to explain why I'm wrong, I am of course willing to listen.
Click to expand...

There are such people about........

One of whom was kind enough to provide some inside information in the past, on this project, on more than one occasion which I have been permitted to share w/the group.
 
turbanplanner said:
I know it's not a TTC project but the lawsuits from the yonge line extension that opened in 2017 are still in progress. They've torn up a bunch of street by pioneer village for probably water work, and the stations are cracking and leaking water.

The TTC sued the contractor for for bad work and the contractor sued the ttc, citing that the ttc sued the whoever planned the station! Just a giant shit show. Why would the Ontario line be different? Considering the design is more complicated.
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Id say that shows that metrolinx isnt alone in delayed mismanaged projects. The key is how builders learn from their mistakes. TTC didnt get a chance to prove they can learn. Can metrolinx?

Put aside crosstown and lets see how they do when OL, yonge line, crosstown west and sse.

metrolinx should let results speak for themselves
 
T3G said:
Uh, no it wasn't.

The groundbreaking for the project was November 9, 2011.


There was a groundbreaking ceremony for the Keelesdale station at a later date in 2016, yes, but that's not the same as groundbreaking for the whole project.

As for my point? I thought I articulated it plenty clear enough, but one more time for the people in the back: claiming that we should take the 2031 deadline for the OL seriously because "actually", the line has been in the works since 2020 and not 2022 is deliberate misrepresentation at best, propaganda at worst. Of course, it was never realistic for work to start on the line that early, as it was just the year prior that Ford had presented his back of the napkin drawings to the world in the first place. Pre-preparation work like property acquisition and utility relocation no more constitutes the start of the construction then the start of building construction being when the building that was there before was demolished. It is not fair to count that as part of the process, because you can acquire property easily and then not make any further progress on a project for years. It is only reasonable to count from when the actual project started work.

Considering the only people that so far have defended Metrolinx's timeline are those who are inclined to defend Metrolinx and the province at the slightest provocation, you'll forgive me for not feeling assured. If a neutral third party with the inside scoop would like to explain why I'm wrong, I am of course willing to listen.
Click to expand...
Okay now youre just misrepresenting things for your own political soapbox

That back of napkin map ford paraded in 2018 he said was going to open in 2027. at the time 2030 was more realistic and it still kinda is with a small amount of delays obviusly.

Remember that was the selling point for the OL vs the DRL. 3 years faster for a cheaper price

Im not trying to relitigate the DRL. Dont take that as my point

I compare that to the 2020 crosstown opening day even the news today still parades around about the crosstown. Even the ttc said in 2013 that late 2021-2022 was more realistic. Remember that covid ruling that crosslinx got for an extension? Keep that in mind too

With that heres what ill say.

Yes the crosstown is delayed, yes Ford lied that 2027 OL could open then but from everything ive seen the schedule seems to be semi-on track. Hell i have a bookmark for a presentation in 2021 where mx outlined the plan for lakeshore east in which theyre only at most 6 months behind on plans made in 2020 (queen bridge demolition).

To be clear 2031 is also maybe unlikely probably closer to mid-late 2032 but the point remains we shouldnt be saying it will "open in 2040"
 
Sunnyside said:
Imo depends on how the supposed contract set to perpetually extend the line will work. The original segment might be quite complex, as @innsertnamehere said, but the planned extensions to the Ontario Line might be by comparison the easiest extensions to a subway ever built in Canada short of the REM. It’s a line that will only get easier to build and could very well just continue at a steady pace for a very long time. It’s too early to say of course, but we will certainly see this before 2060 if such a contract is to be believed.
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Interesting. I'm definitely more optimistic than 2060 but I have no idea how easy the project might be to get funded compared to all the other transit priorities. Eglinton West contract got signed during the crosstown construction.

Would be awesome to have the next extension project ready to continue building after the Ontario Line gets built. Very interesting to have a phased model to get a steady pace and just have new stations being continually opened and built.

Science Centre -> Don Mills Station -> Richmond Hill Centre -> Pearson Airport -> Kipling seems awfully ambitious but that would be really quite the interconnected network with all those transit interchanges.
 
chrisw said:
Science Centre -> Don Mills Station -> Richmond Hill Centre -> Pearson Airport -> Kipling seems awfully ambitious but that would be really quite the interconnected network with all those transit interchanges.
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Why is there this preoccupation with extending the Ontario Line to Pearson, via Richmond Hill no less? I've seen it said casually on this thread many times, but it sounds like an operational nightmare. Which direction do I need to go of I'm @ King and Bathurst to go to Pearson?

Can we have lines that make sense please? There is nothing preventing us from making a separate line from Richmond Hill to Pearson, and *gasp*, people could just transfer. Don't know what this cities obsession is with building long lines that try to go everywhere. Transfers are good, actually.
 
goreckm said:
Why is there this preoccupation with extending the Ontario Line to Pearson, via Richmond Hill no less? I've seen it said casually on this thread many times, but it sounds like an operational nightmare
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Definitely seconded, this baffles me! There are pages upon pages of scrutiny in this thread about the alignment to head north from Science Centre but it seems universally agreed that it will then head west to Pearson?

Personally, I don’t see the demand in the next 20-40 years for running a subway orbitally at this distance from downtown and certainly not at the frequency of Ontario Line’s south section.

Hypothetically if we do see that demand across the north, I predict a greater chance of RER on a new dedicated track section, say around Doncaster (Airport rd south of Steeles) to Hagerman (rail crossing south of Unionville) on the current CN freight corridor north of Steeles. Hell if we’re considering 40 years from now we should really be talking about HSR.
 
Well, it's in MTO's 2051 GGH Plan. For sure you can try to suggest your own alternatives. But my goal is try to visualize what the plan is trying to do. It'd use the 407 ROW to go east and west. Their vision is to see Richmond Hill Centre and Pearson Airport be major transit interchanges.

Though they also have an East-West Cross Regional Connection (Burlington - Pearson - Locust Hill - Oshawa) penned in that will also use the 407, though maybe with a further stop spacing.

They have 33 projects that haven't been committed to yet, so I never knew how feasible and prioritized the Ontario Line Loop Connection would be out of all of them. But @Sunnyside said this extension is quite feasible ("the easiest extensions to a subway ever built in Canada short of the REM").
 
goreckm said:
Why is there this preoccupation with extending the Ontario Line to Pearson, via Richmond Hill no less? I've seen it said casually on this thread many times, but it sounds like an operational nightmare. Which direction do I need to go of I'm @ King and Bathurst to go to Pearson?
Click to expand...

That is because the province's Transportation Plan looking towards 2051 includes tastements about a 'conceptual' future extention of the Ontario Line as a loop between Pearson Airport and Richmond Hill Centre.

  • Two new conceptual cross-regional rapid transit connections:
    • A new east-west line between Burlington and Oshawa, north of Toronto, that connects existing and proposed GO Rail, subway, and LRT lines outside of Union Station, and serves major employment centres and growth areas.
    • A new transit loop that connects the Ontario Line to new major transit hubs where regional services connect, including Pearson International Airport and Richmond Hill Centre, and to other subway and GO Rail lines.
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It also included this map, Ontario Line Loop is marked number 30:
1695444950875.png

The Document sugest that the conceptual plan is for the Ontario Line to goes to 'Highway 404' from Eglinton, Which probably means along Don Mills Road to Don Mills Satation next to the 404 interchange. Then from there it veers somehow to Richmond Hill Center where the Yonge Line extension will be. (probably along the 407 or GO line to Bridge or High Tech Station) The image is not very clear on how it gets from there to Pearson. The line between that point and Pearson is marked as the (29) East-West Cross-Reginional Connection, which is a seperate conceptial line going between Oshawa and Burlington through Pearson.
 
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