[diminutive]

Suburban Rail is only a substitute for subways when it has stop spacing equivalent to subways (you're not served by transit if it just speeds by without a stop). The Kingston Sub (Lakeshore East and Stouffville GO line) only has room for 4 tracks. It's HIGHLY unlikely that you can run a decent service of intercity trains to Montreal, Ottawa, and Kingston; local suburban rail to Pickering and Markham; express suburban rail to Oshawa and Bowmanville; and subway-substitute suburban rail with stops in the West Donlands, Queen East, Gerrard East, etc with just 4 tracks.

I think this is addressed to me, so will give my opinion. Assuming the Kingston stub is limited to 4 tracks through its narrowest points, I'd imagine a service of two tracks for intercity rail & express suburban rail (Oshawa), two for S-Bahn/subway.

The S-bahn/subway service would stop at West Donlands, Queen East Gerrard East ect while intercity and 'express' regional rail could use the two remaining tracks. Given VIA's never more than 2-3 trains per hour and express suburban rail wouldn't be either that's well within capacity. The stations themselves would require land aquisition near the rail corridor, but that's a given for any station regardless of route.

 

[CDL.TO]

I think this is addressed to me, so will give my opinion. Assuming the Kingston stub is limited to 4 tracks through its narrowest points, I'd imagine a service of two tracks for intercity rail & express suburban rail (Oshawa), two for S-Bahn/subway.

The S-bahn/subway service would stop at West Donlands, Queen East Gerrard East ect while intercity and 'express' regional rail could use the two remaining tracks. Given VIA's never more than 2-3 trains per hour and express suburban rail wouldn't be either that's well within capacity. The stations themselves would require land aquisition near the rail corridor, but that's a given for any station regardless of route.

GO already has 4 express trains per peak hour on Lakeshore East. Toss in VIA and there really isn't that much room for expansion of capacity.

Plus, subway-style stop spacing on the Stouffville line is going to be a slow trip.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I think it's unwise to assume that it can be done AND provide room for expansion of capacity in the future.

 

[weekend_guy]

GO already has 4 express trains per peak hour on Lakeshore East. Toss in VIA and there really isn't that much room for expansion of capacity.

Plus, subway-style stop spacing on the Stouffville line is going to be a slow trip.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I think it's unwise to assume that it can be done AND provide room for expansion of capacity in the future.

Agreed. If one looks at the Georgetown South EPR, it shows an 8 track cross-section from USRC to Lansdowne with no room to spare - 2 Milton tracks for all day two-way service, 2 Barrie tracks for all day two-way service, and 4 Kitchener tracks for all day two-way service, VIA, and UP Express service.

Between Lansdowne and the WTD, it's 6 tracks once the Barrie lines head northward in their own corridor with the additional corridor width already occupied by the Rail Path.

Without giving up future capacity, an argument could be made to change the UP Express service to a more local milk run that could serve as the DRL west. But these users would be directed to Union Station.

 

[diminutive]

GO already has 4 express trains per peak hour on Lakeshore East. Toss in VIA and there really isn't that much room for expansion of capacity.

What's line capacity? 4 GO trains plus 2 VIA trains during peak hardly seems like oversaturation. In any case, if you have S-bahn style service to the 'inner 905' (e.g. Markham, Brampton, Oakville, Pickering...) capacity requirements really aren't very high on the residual 'express' system. On Stouffville for instance, if you have an S-bahn like system running to Markham, how many 'express' trains would be required for Lincolnville and Stouffville?

Plus, subway-style stop spacing on the Stouffville line is going to be a slow trip.

Hardly much slower than it already is. The 'express' Stouffville->Union is basically an hour, so averaging about 47km/h. Yonge between Lawrence and York Mills averages shy of 40km/h. Slightly wider suburban stop spacing for a suburban DRL could pretty easily match GO speeds.

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I think it's unwise to assume that it can be done AND provide room for expansion of capacity in the future.

It become's a question of 'capacity where?' I'd be the first to admit that converting a lot of existing GO tracks to an S-bahn system would be pretty negative for outer 905ers (Hamilton, Kitchener, Barrie...). Kitchener's ridership was what, under a 100/day? That would hardly justify an express Kitchener-Toronto service with 10-car GO trains. Ultimately I think it makes much more sense to focus on 416/inner 905 riders.

 

[gweed123]

What's line capacity? 4 GO trains plus 2 VIA trains during peak hardly seems like oversaturation. In any case, if you have S-bahn style service to the 'inner 905' (e.g. Markham, Brampton, Oakville, Pickering...) capacity requirements really aren't very high on the residual 'express' system. On Stouffville for instance, if you have an S-bahn like system running to Markham, how many 'express' trains would be required for Lincolnville and Stouffville?

Personally, off-peak I'd rather just see 1 6-car GO train run from the terminus of the GO REX to the farthest station out (Mt. Pleasant to Kitchener, Mt. Joy to Uxbridge, Aldershot to Niagara Falls, Oshawa to Port Hope). Much easier than trying to run an express service from Union all the way out, especially since it will be lightly used.

During peak there can be 2 or 3 sets on the line instead of just 1 going back and forth.

This would mean GO REX level service for the 416 and inner 905, and more frequent service for the outer 905, because you'd end up with trips about once every hour off-peak, and about 20 mins during peak.

 

[dunkalunk]

I would not mind at all if I could take a regular GO train trip from Kitchener to Georgetown and then have that trip change to an express at Georgetown (Maybe stopping in Bramalea along the way)

 

[gweed123]

I would not mind at all if I could take a regular GO train trip from Kitchener to Georgetown and then have that trip change to an express at Georgetown (Maybe stopping in Bramalea along the way)

Express or GO REX (S-Bahn)? Just trying to make sure I understand your terminology, haha. And the reason I chose stations like Mt. Pleasant and Mt. Joy is because they're on the edge of the current urban boundary, 1 stop beyond the "centre" stops in that area (Brampton and Markham, respectively). It would make sense to end at those stations, only they're in old downtown areas, and there isn't enough room for a proper terminus facility. By extending it 1 stop beyond those 'centres', you can build a proper terminus and transfer facility there.

Personally, I don't think that the GO REX system should go much beyond the urban boundary, at least for now. Get all of the necessary lines upgraded to REX standards (or at least Lakeshore, Brampton-Markham, and Milton), and THEN worry about extending the GO REX system to further out areas.

 

[dunkalunk]

There is no reason to be running 12-car trains out to the storage yard in Kitchener when a 6-car DMU will do just fine. What you would do is extend express trips as regular GO trips past the urban boundary so a true regional rail network is able to be developed. It is also more economical to build maintenance and storage facilities for 6-car DMUs than it would be for the current 12-car trains. For local service on the line, one would walk across the platform to a GO REX train at whatever the major transfer station is on that line.

 

[gweed123]

There is no reason to be running 12-car trains out to the storage yard in Kitchener when a 6-car DMU will do just fine. What you would do is extend express trips as regular GO trips past the urban boundary so a true regional rail network is able to be developed. It is also more economical to build maintenance and storage facilities for 6-car DMUs than it would be for the current 12-car trains. For local service on the line, one would walk across the platform to a GO REX train at whatever the major transfer station is on that line.

I think we're saying the same thing, just in a different way, haha. What I'd like to see is GO REX (S-Bahn) level service at first from Hamilton to Oshawa, and from Mt. Pleasant to Mt. Joy. There would also be a 2nd overlapping line that would run from Port Credit to Pickering, and from Pearson to Finch. This would create ~15 min off-peak service in the 905, and ~7.5 min service in the very inner 905 and the 416.

At the terminus stations, there would be a transfer to a regular GO train in a 6 car configuration that would take you from that terminus station to whatever 'outer' station you wanted to go to (Kitchener, Uxbridge, etc). During off-peak, that train would just run a shuttle service back and forth along the outer stretch of the line.

Or are you suggesting that the 6 car GO trains continue express all the way into Union, after they reach the GO REX terminus? If so, I think that's an unnecessary duplication of service. It would be more efficient just to end those routes at the GO REX terminus points, and then have people walk across the platform to an awaiting GO REX train, and continue their journey inwards that way.

 

[dunkalunk]

Or are you suggesting that the 6 car GO trains continue express all the way into Union, after they reach the GO REX terminus? If so, I think that's an unnecessary duplication of service. It would be more efficient just to end those routes at the GO REX terminus points, and then have people walk across the platform to an awaiting GO REX train, and continue their journey inwards that way.

There is a demand for express service along this line that is not currently served by GO. Along the Kitchener line, you should expect to see three kinds of GO service; Intercity, Local, and Airport Limited in addition to whatever Intercity/HSR service that VIA decides to run.

Here's an example table of what I mean:

 

[gweed123]

There is a demand for express service along this line that is not currently served by GO. Along the Kitchener line, you should expect to see three kinds of GO service; Intercity, Local, and Airport Limited in addition to whatever Intercity/HSR service that VIA decides to run.

Here's an example table of what I mean:

Gotcha. Personally, I think the UP Express is doomed to fail, and it will be converted into a regular GO REX line within a decade after opening. That's what I was referring to when I said the Pearson-Finch GO REX (the short-turn version of the Brampton-Markham GO REX).

I guess where we differ is what to do with the intercity transit. Personally, I think running such an express service from the outer areas into Union is an unnecessary duplication in service. It may be fine for rush hour, but beyond that, no thanks. Just drop them off at Mt. Pleasant and let them ride the GO REX in from there. Free up track space for other uses along that line that will see higher ridership.

 

[dunkalunk]

Speaking from personal experience, the worst part of taking the GO train out to Kitchener are the large number of stops between Georgetown and Union. If the line ran express from Georgetown, you would see a lot more people from Kitchener and within the GTA using it. It is not as if VIA provides any sort of useful service along the North Mainline today, unlike the South Mainline. I'd much rather see VIA's current service on the North Mainline supplanted by GO Transit.

 

[gweed123]

Speaking from personal experience, the worst part of taking the GO train out to Kitchener are the large number of stops between Georgetown and Union. If the line ran express from Georgetown, you would see a lot more people from Kitchener and within the GTA using it. It is not as if VIA provides any sort of useful service along the North Mainline today, unlike the South Mainline. I'd much rather see VIA's current service on the North Mainline supplanted by GO Transit.

I think a distinction needs to be made between peak and off-peak though. During peak, yes I can see running 3 or 4 express trains from Kitchener to Union. But outside of peak? Seems like kind of a waste for the several 10s of people who would be taking each train.

During peak I'm fine with an express train, but off-peak it should just be a shuttle to Mt. Pleasant.

EDIT: Actually, on most of my GO REX maps I show a 3rd service on there, that is a rush hour only service, that runs milk run in the 905 until the point where the 2nd 'overlapping 416' line comes into effect, and then it runs express to Union. So for example, the Kitchener trains would run milk run to Malton, and then express to Union. Lakeshore trains would run milk run to Port Credit and Pickering respectively, and then express to Union. Of course, this would be a rush hour only service.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think a distinction needs to be made between peak and off-peak though. During peak, yes I can see running 3 or 4 express trains from Kitchener to Union. But outside of peak? Seems like kind of a waste for the several 10s of people who would be taking each train.

During peak I'm fine with an express train, but off-peak it should just be a shuttle to Mt. Pleasant.

EDIT: Actually, on most of my GO REX maps I show a 3rd service on there, that is a rush hour only service, that runs milk run in the 905 until the point where the 2nd 'overlapping 416' line comes into effect, and then it runs express to Union. So for example, the Kitchener trains would run milk run to Malton, and then express to Union. Lakeshore trains would run milk run to Port Credit and Pickering respectively, and then express to Union. Of course, this would be a rush hour only service.

I think it would 4 to Kitchener and then most of the trains will terminate in Mt Pleasant or Acton.

 

[ssiguy2]

The best thing that Toronto could do IMMEDIATELY to improve transit in the city is to levy different taxes to raise an amount and send it directly to GO. In exchange for this extra funding, Torontonians would be able to take any GO trains within the city limits using their standard Metropass and that should include the UP Rail Link.

This would greatly reduce traffic on the subway lines and get Torontonians the rapid transit to further suburbs that desperately need an affordable and fast option to get across the city.