[dowlingm]

There could be a reason underpinning was delayed - cash flow. In 2011 the financial crisis was still receding.

 

[fanoftoronto]

There could be a reason underpinning was delayed - cash flow. In 2011 the financial crisis was still receding.

Completely valid reason. Maybe funding was not released to allow for the underpinned stations' construction works. But why haven't they come out and confirmed this? Metrolinx should have identified this as a problem when cash flow was not what was required and when things started going wrong, informed the public and the media that it was a mistake due to circumstances and that they're trying to mitigate the situation.

One of the primary issues of the Crosstown was also lack of communication. The public and the media is entitled to information from Metrolinx. It's the public tax dollars funding this after all, so we are legit stakeholders. It shouldn't be random suits behind closed doors having these conversations, it should be the general public who should be informed.

Heck, I have to give receipts and explanations if certain expenses go over a threshold to most of my expenses incurred on a work trip and those are like $5,000 each maximum. Metrolinx has lower levels of scrutiny and they're spending $11 billion. I really don't think there's any explanation that justifies the horrible planning and horrible communication from Metrolinx.

 

[generalcanada]

If everything went smoothly is a very naive way of project management.

Metrolinx started TBM tunnelling in 2011. TBM tunnelling is historically the most straightforward part of the build process. Why was that prioritized over commencement of construction of more critical and risky portions of the line such as the underpinning of the 2 interchange stations with Line 1. You're right, Kennedy should've started at the same time to limit the impact of any unforseen issues.

As @Northern Light mentioned, delays need to be accounted for and baked into the schedule.

When you spend literal tens of billions of dollars, completion dates or milestone dates are critically required.

To be fair, Ontario Line is prioritizing better. Having started station construction already and working on critical infrastructure. They've also negated having any issues on underpinning by not performing underpinning at all in the Downton interchange stations! Lol

I mean, to be clear they one bad thing they did with the line was package everything as a single contract. Early works included. Even utilities which werent even touched until contracts were signed leading to lawsuits.

Metrolinx asks court to block lawsuit over Eglinton Crosstown LRT line

The provincial transit agency says in a court filing that it “requires and insists” that Crosslinx, the consortium building the Eglinton Crosstown, complete the LRT line by the 2021 deadline.

www.thestar.com

Crosslinx’s notice didn’t include a detailed claim, but it alleged that work by utility companies had exceeded time frames guaranteed by Metrolinx and interfered with the construction process.
It also cited “issues regarding permits, licences and approvals” and “delays” and “disruptions” affecting the design approval process.

Im just saying the organization is different, they have learned, people have came and gone. Verster only came in in 2017. Is it his fault that the project was mismanaged from the start?

Why are we giving the ttc a pass on TYSSE when a couple middle-managers were gone? How much turnover has there been with Metrolinx? Why cant we do the same with them?

 

[nfitz]

There could be a reason underpinning was delayed - cash flow. In 2011 the financial crisis was still receding.

If I remember (and it was discussed in the thread at the time), Metrolinx was going to have city/TTC do the work at Eglinton and Eglinton West, and wasn't part of the original contracts.

2011? They didn't issue the RFQ and RFP until 2013. And didn't award the work to Crosslinx until November 2015 - about 18 months after Metrolinx's 2012 schedule. This after the 1-year delay from 2011 to 2012 while Metrolinx considered moving management from TTC to Infrastructure Ontario. Meanwhile TTC estimated that not awarding the main contract until mid-2014 was a 2-year delay beyond the schedule that TTC had. TTC had been planning to use a traditional approach to complete it by 2020, and had already awarded the first tunnelling contract in 2011.

Back in 2012, TTC publicly advised Metrolinx that Metrolinx's schedule was unrealistic, and suggested it couldn't be done until 2022 or 2023, based on a mid-2014 award. Add the extra 18 months delay of awarding in late-2015, and they are pretty much when TTC originally estimated Metrolinx would finish this!

I can't remember if all the work at Eglinton and Eglinton West stations were added before the 2015 award or not. Or just after the 2013 RFP.

I mean, to be clear they one bad thing they did with the line was package everything as a single contract. Early works included

It wasn't a single contract. TTC had set up to do multiple contracts, with two tunnelling contracts, and multiple station contracts. And separate contracts for the tracks and electrical, etc. TTC had already awarded and started construction on the tunnelling west of Yonge when Metrolinx transferred the work to IO in 2012. And Metrolinx ended awarding the other tunnelling contract as well, rather than roll it into the design-build.

The early works would have been done long before Crosslinx started work in 2016.

Metrolinx and IO had no frigging clue what they were doing. Hopefully they've learned the lessons.

 

[fanoftoronto]

I mean, to be clear they one bad thing they did with the line was package everything as a single contract. Early works included. Even utilities which werent even touched until contracts were signed leading to lawsuits.

Metrolinx asks court to block lawsuit over Eglinton Crosstown LRT line

The provincial transit agency says in a court filing that it “requires and insists” that Crosslinx, the consortium building the Eglinton Crosstown, complete the LRT line by the 2021 deadline.

www.thestar.com

Im just saying the organization is different, they have learned, people have came and gone. Verster only came in in 2017. Is it his fault that the project was mismanaged from the start?

Why are we giving the ttc a pass on TYSSE when a couple middle-managers were gone? How much turnover has there been with Metrolinx? Why cant we do the same with them?

Giving the TTC a "pass" on issues seen in the TYSSE does not mean that we should be giving Metrolinx a pass on the myriad of issues seen on the Crosstown. Both delays should have proper scrutiny and bad press associated with it because it is the responsibility of the governing authority to deliver on schedules in a timely fashion.

Verster is not responsible for the delays caused by decisions made prior to his takeover of Metrolinx. But he is very much responsible for the bad communication, lack of transparency, and general hand-waving of any accountability for Metrolinx run projects since his takeover as CEO. We do not have a scheduled opening date for a $12.8 BILLION transit project that is more than 2 years delayed already for god's sake. Do you hear how absurd that is!!

As @nfitz mentioned in the previous post, it seems the scheduling issues were made visible and clear to Metrolinx and yet nothing was done to mitigate them. And to add insult to injury, no transparency was shown to the general public by Metrolinx on the delays and how they were trying to mitigate them.

Again, with how things are progressing with the Ontario Line, it does look like Metrolinx has learned their lesson on proper schedule and project management. Most of the major contracts have been awarded and construction has commenced on basically all critical components within the system.

• The underground section has digging started on most of the downtown stations.
• The shared GO corridor on the eastern section is at the point where the entire section has construction ongoing to widen and accommodate the new GO + OL tracks.
• The 2 Don river crossing bridges have construction commenced, and even footings installed in the case of the lower Don crossing.
• Pape station is very much a construction zone already which is critical as this is one of the interchange stations that may have similar issues as Eglinton station did.
• Digging has commenced for the launch shafts for the TBMs that will be employed for the tunnelling.
• Exhibition station already has the area cleared and GO tracks relocated to allow for the new massive future station.

All this activity gives me hope that we will be seeing the OL open in 2031 as per the original estimate. We definitely need to keep on Metrolinx to commit to this date in order to keep up the good work and ensure no further slips occur.

 

[Carpe Diem]

Giving the TTC a "pass" on issues seen in the TYSSE does not mean that we should be giving Metrolinx a pass on the myriad of issues seen on the Crosstown. Both delays should have proper scrutiny and bad press associated with it because it is the responsibility of the governing authority to deliver on schedules in a timely fashion.

Verster is not responsible for the delays caused by decisions made prior to his takeover of Metrolinx. But he is very much responsible for the bad communication, lack of transparency, and general hand-waving of any accountability for Metrolinx run projects since his takeover as CEO. We do not have a scheduled opening date for a $12.8 BILLION transit project that is more than 2 years delayed already for god's sake. Do you hear how absurd that is!!

As @nfitz mentioned in the previous post, it seems the scheduling issues were made visible and clear to Metrolinx and yet nothing was done to mitigate them. And to add insult to injury, no transparency was shown to the general public by Metrolinx on the delays and how they were trying to mitigate them.

Again, with how things are progressing with the Ontario Line, it does look like Metrolinx has learned their lesson on proper schedule and project management. Most of the major contracts have been awarded and construction has commenced on basically all critical components within the system.

• The underground section has digging started on most of the downtown stations.
• The shared GO corridor on the eastern section is at the point where the entire section has construction ongoing to widen and accommodate the new GO + OL tracks.
• The 2 Don river crossing bridges have construction commenced, and even footings installed in the case of the lower Don crossing.
• Pape station is very much a construction zone already which is critical as this is one of the interchange stations that may have similar issues as Eglinton station did.
• Digging has commenced for the launch shafts for the TBMs that will be employed for the tunnelling.
• Exhibition station already has the area cleared and GO tracks relocated to allow for the new massive future station.

All this activity gives me hope that we will be seeing the OL open in 2031 as per the original estimate. We definitely need to keep on Metrolinx to commit to this date in order to keep up the good work and ensure no further slips occur.

On a mountain bike ride yesterday I came across 3 people starting work/cutting/flagging on the south side of the DVP for what will eventually be the tunnel portal at the end of the north end of Pape. Another sign of things progressing. They've also started more work behind the Police Dog Training Facility in the Don. Encouraging signs.

 

[dowlingm]

I think the theory behind Infrastructure Ontario is laudable - create a project management and delivery agency which works with municipalities and transit agencies to organize planning, design, construction resources for projects of a size beyond which those municipalities or agencies can't expect to hire/retain top quality staff. The problem is that they are ultimately answerable to the Ministry/Minister's Office, which means (a) arbitrary decisions can be made and (b) the Minister's civil service or political staffs can ensure nobody talks about them.

To get away from that would require IO to have a different status - essentially once a Minister gave them the goahead on a project, it should take a debate and vote in parliament to stop it or change it. IO should be given a mandate (deliver X capacity which must serve a corridor between Y and Z) and given a budget envelope (confidential) but with IO having the discretion to refuse the engagement if the envelope cannot pay for the mandate. IO should then be the delivery agency and permitted to make public statements at its discretion, and accountability should be to the Legislature rather than the Minister.

The problem with this is that it transfers a large amount of power away from the Executive, and the Executive (particularly this one) is not one which likes giving power away - not to public agencies, at least.

 

[adys123]

If I remember (and it was discussed in the thread at the time), Metrolinx was going to have city/TTC do the work at Eglinton and Eglinton West, and wasn't part of the original contracts.

2011? They didn't issue the RFQ and RFP until 2013. And didn't award the work to Crosslinx until November 2015 - about 18 months after Metrolinx's 2012 schedule. This after the 1-year delay from 2011 to 2012 while Metrolinx considered moving management from TTC to Infrastructure Ontario. Meanwhile TTC estimated that not awarding the main contract until mid-2014 was a 2-year delay beyond the schedule that TTC had. TTC had been planning to use a traditional approach to complete it by 2020, and had already awarded the first tunnelling contract in 2011.

Back in 2012, TTC publicly advised Metrolinx that Metrolinx's schedule was unrealistic, and suggested it couldn't be done until 2022 or 2023, based on a mid-2014 award. Add the extra 18 months delay of awarding in late-2015, and they are pretty much when TTC originally estimated Metrolinx would finish this!

I can't remember if all the work at Eglinton and Eglinton West stations were added before the 2015 award or not. Or just after the 2013 RFP.

It wasn't a single contract. TTC had set up to do multiple contracts, with two tunnelling contracts, and multiple station contracts. And separate contracts for the tracks and electrical, etc. TTC had already awarded and started construction on the tunnelling west of Yonge when Metrolinx transferred the work to IO in 2012. And Metrolinx ended awarding the other tunnelling contract as well, rather than roll it into the design-build.

The early works would have been done long before Crosslinx started work in 2016.

Metrolinx and IO had no frigging clue what they were doing. Hopefully they've learned the lessons.

From my sources, TTC projected 2025 (without COVID) as the initial completion date with the traditional model, and it was claimed that it could be done by 2020 with the P3 model. But that does align with some of the early 2010s storyline.

 

[fanoftoronto]

From my sources, TTC projected 2025 (without COVID) as the initial completion date with the traditional model, and it was claimed that it could be done by 2020 with the P3 model. But that does align with some of the early 2010s storyline.

Do you have citations for this source? Documents backing up the 2025 date?

Even with the traditional model it should've only been 2020 for opening and all the articles from the 2011 timeframe support this. Also, looking at the last project headed by the TTC under the traditional model was the TYSSE. Construction began in 2008 with an original completion date of 2015 and delayed to 2017. Though there are no major engineering challenges in the TYSSE, it is also complicated with large station buildings and 150m long station boxes and a comparable length of underground tunnelling. Don't see how the Crosstown would take 14 years to complete in the TTC model which is twice the time that TTC originally pegged the TYSSE to take.

Another way to look at it is what did the P3 model change to allow for quicker completion? The P3 model wasn't some magical way to expedite the construction process.

 

[nfitz]

The question might be when did TTC project this? They were projecting 2023-2024 back in 2012, before Metrolinx slipped the schedule by another 18 months. All they had to do was a little addition by 2015 and that's where they'd have landed.