[ehlow]

Lastman was the father of the Transit City plan. His council requested a report on future congested streets (2011 to 2021) and asked the TTC what could be done about it. This document appeared a couple of times in Rocket Rider meetings between 2001 and 2003 as provided by the planning department. BRT and LRT were options on the table at that time.

Lastman is the silent absentee father of Transit City (planted the seed and took off); Miller is father through adoption, by giving the plan a name, and raising it.


Yes, I did like the plan which addressed many of the problems laid out in the congestion report and was moderately affordable. I didn't like that south of Gardiner was ignored. I really liked the Transit City Bus Plan.

I don't like spending the next 10+ years worth of transit capital in a 13km portion of the city only.


Pissed that the Lastman target was 2011 for an implementation and here we are in 2014 and construction hasn't started. It sat on Miller's desk for nearly 4 years before he sent it out the door.

If Tory finished what Lastman started, I likely would have been happy with him too. Of course, he's also smart enough to know realize that spending requires income. I still don't think it's a good idea to elect someone as mayor who has never sat as a councillor. Politics at City Hall are radically different from the provincial/federal level.


Anyway, you guys tell me who to vote for. My own best interests are served best by the person who kills public transit expansion, sells the Gardiner to a private company instead of repairing it, and gives a 10% property tax decrease based on Gardiner funds. That's a horrible way to build a city, but it would work for me.

My post was meant to mainly just be a joke about Filip calling Miller your "God", which I found funny

 

[Filip]

My god?

And I have no doubt you realize what a 20+ year deferral really means. The city hit its debt limit and was unable to muster political will to fund numerous projects and the province wasn't willing to pick it up for similar reasons.

Ford was elected since and put nearly every penny over the next 8 years into SCC. If you want transit, vote for the mayor and provincial candidate who has an interest and funding plan to invest in public transit Toronto wide or is at least willing to trade for your neighbourhood. Grimes is a good choice in councillor for what you want (helped implement Land Transfer Tax and has an interest in TTC service).

Why are you attacking me anyway? I just said I was willing to invest in transit in your region despite being of no benefit to me. I'm on your side; but I can be against you too if you prefer that. Lack of transit is good at the moment for downtown real-estate prices; my best self-interest is to vote against transit expansion/taxes then sell my place in a few years and leave the city (no job ties here).

My apologies for coming off too aggressive. I am frustrated at the willful neglect the city has in this area. The deferral to 2028 (in 2009 - while Miller was still in power) meant certain death for the project. Had a completed EA been performed, with some funding allocated, this project could have chugged ahead (it was the cheapest TC line proposed running on existing corridors using TTC stock). I feel like Ford would have let it slide, especially since there is no true interest by anyone in putting a subway line in this corridor. Therefore, I refuse to blame Ford for something that was not his decision. The blame sits with the Miller administration that focused on an LRT down the wrong corridor (Sheppard) with ridership that is better suited for enhanced bus service - not to mention the cost. If Miller is blameless, then why was Sheppard a priority? Most TC corridors would have benefitted far more. Sheppard was political posturing by Miller to prove LRTs, let's stub the subway permanently and enhanced the bleak streetscape with something fancy and European. There is no other rational explanation for prioritizing Sheppard.

Now back to why I cannot believe the city's role in this. They have approved thousands of condo units in a tiny strip of isolated land. There are only two 'roads' and two ways to leave the area, both via those roads (Park Lawn and Lake Shore). The rail corridor acts like a river to the west, the lake another barrier to the east. Now, these two roads are not particularly large. They're not wide suburban arterials in any stretch of the definition. Lake Shore also has a streetcar running on it. So with all this rampant development (and the associated tax monies to city coffers) we have seen no functional improvements to our infrastructure. The little bit of relief we could have had (Park Lawn loop) is apparently too expensive for the bean counters at the TTC. It's far cheaper to spend billions elsewhere. Not to mention no added benefits of being a dense community (library, school, community centre, etc) and the parks that development fees built are falling apart because there is no maintenance being conducted on them! Those gorgeous waterfront parks are homes to broken benches, entire rows of malfunctioning lights, rotting bridges... There's a good article in the neighbourhood magazine (from Humber Happenings, Spring 2014 issue): we are being taken advantage of. The city is milking us and offering nothing in return.

Anyway I find Grimes to be a toothless councillor who thinks it is more important to campaign at each community town hall than get stuff done. He's not a good community advocate; he is a failure.

 

[rbt]

Now back to why I cannot believe the city's role in this. They have approved thousands of condo units in a tiny strip of isolated land. There are only two 'roads' and two ways to leave the area, both via those roads (Park Lawn and Lake Shore). The rail corridor acts like a river to the west, the lake another barrier to the east. Now, these two roads are not particularly large. They're not wide suburban arterials in any stretch of the definition. Lake Shore also has a streetcar running on it. So with all this rampant development (and the associated tax monies to city coffers) we have seen no functional improvements to our infrastructure. The little bit of relief we could have had (Park Lawn loop) is apparently too expensive for the bean counters at the TTC. It's far cheaper to spend billions elsewhere. Not to mention no added benefits of being a dense community (library, school, community centre, etc) and the parks that development fees built are falling apart because there is no maintenance being conducted on them! Those gorgeous waterfront parks are homes to broken benches, entire rows of malfunctioning lights, rotting bridges... There's a good article in the neighbourhood magazine (from Humber Happenings, Spring 2014 issue): we are being taken advantage of. The city is milking us and offering nothing in return.

It is indeed insane. So is the situation at City Place, Fort York, and Liberty Village. That single corridor exists and fixes problems in all 4 neighbourhoods for a pretty damn low price when combined with East Bayfront (union station loop, shared component, is the expensive bit).

Miller certainly isn't blameless. He took the political hit for new taxation but didn't tax enough to actually do anything other than cover the maintenance deficit Lastman left behind. He should have been much more aggressive and tendered design+build contracts for some of the projects the province left behind. The political benefit to a design+build is they're damn hard to cancel.

Neither Ford or Stintz have helped.


However, we aren't willing to boost taxes by $700 per capita per year to build 200km of subway ($50B) in a timely manner so the "subways or nothing" crap has got to stop too; because nothing for most areas is the answer in that debate. It's got to be BRT and LRT in most locations.

IMO, DRL should disappear entirely and the money should mostly be sunk into a GO tunnel through downtown instead. Build BRT/LRT feeders to GO stations as appropriate and run double-decker GO trains every 3 to 5 minutes through the core like RER-A.

Anyway I find Grimes to be a toothless councillor who thinks it is more important to campaign at each community town hall than get stuff done. He's not a good community advocate; he is a failure.

Perhaps. His bio reads well in terms of being in the right places within City Hall to accomplish something useful. I really don't follow him.

 

[ehlow]

I've never really looked into the WWLRT before. After reading about it today since it was brought up in this thread, it seems like a really practical & good idea to me. It seems like it would be relatively cheap & fast to implement.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Taxpayers are sick and tired of transit being held hostage and used as a political football by the NDP acolytes on council who have controlled the city since amalgamation.

The people elected Rob Ford because they were tired of having the NDP's social engineering agenda—under the guise of "city building" and "serving the community"—being pushed down our throats while ignoring the needs of the taxpayer.

To be frank, no taxpayer in this city should be supporting the waste of any taxpayer dollars on any transit period unless there is a stop at their doorstep and—at minimum—express stops to the bar, work, and possibly the pitch.

I wished more people would be like Filip and demand better. The city would be better off if there were more Filips.

Actions speaks louder than words. Call your councillor, MPP, MP, the media, stop this billion dollar boondoggle dead in its tracks.

Nice to see Forgotten again. It's been a while since I've spotted you

 

[BurlOak]

I am not asking for a DRL to Mimico - I am asking for a DRL ANYWHERE NEAR THE WEST END.

For Eglinton, the smart planners and politicians found a way of promoting an elevated solution - so that more grade-separated transit could be built. The same thing happened on Sheppard where cut-and-cover was given as an option to TBM to get longer grade-separated transit.

The smart planners and politicians where absent on Sheppard and Eglinton. Hopefully they can consider cut-and-cover north of Danforth, elevated portions through Flemingdon, some cut-and-cover through portions of downtown and less complex stations. If they lower the cost per kilometer, then maybe the full DRL can be built in one shot.

 

[WislaHD]

I've never really looked into the WWLRT before. After reading about it today since it was brought up in this thread, it seems like a really practical & good idea to me. It seems like it would be relatively cheap & fast to implement.

It seems like it is a good idea because it is.

And cheap too, I don't recall the exact figure but I remember someone saying it would only cost in the ball park of 800-900million. (If someone does know, I'd like a more accurate number) Well short of the several billion-dollar lines that are usually talked about back and forth on here and at city council. Its probably the line that can benefit the most, for the cheapest, and be constructed the quickest.

 

[Bamako]

TTC fails to service Mimico GO conveniently.

I have said for years there needs to be a GO station at Park Lawn as well a parking structure for the Gardiner. It still needs to happen sooner than later to service this huge development area.

TTC needs to build a loop west of Park Lawn, not where is plan to go as there are more riders west of there that is being under server now.

At one time the Mimico GO Station along with a new TTC loop was to be built next to the tracks on the west side of the creek that is in a flood base area.

Mimico and Park Lawn stations would be approximately 1300m apart. The shortest gap between existing GO stations is between Markham and Mount Joy at 2km.

I also recommend a Sunnyside station (+DRL connection) but that would make it 4 stops (Exhibition) to get fully around Humber Bay. That's not practical with diesel consists but really easy with EMUs.

 

[drum118]

Mimico and Park Lawn stations would be approximately 1300m apart. The shortest gap between existing GO stations is between Markham and Mount Joy at 2km.

I also recommend a Sunnyside station (+DRL connection) but that would make it 4 stops (Exhibition) to get fully around Humber Bay. That's not practical with diesel consists but really easy with EMUs.

There was talk that Mimico station would be relocated to Park Lawn years ago.

I was asked back in 2007/08 by Metrolinx did I see other locations needing new stations and said yes.

I also stated by adding more stations and going EMU, GO would have to add different types of service on top what they did at the time to service these new stations.

The Milk Run would stop at every station on the line and transfer to the Hop Scotch run or one of the current runs; Hop Scotch would stop every 2nd or 3rd station to pickup riders from the milk run for faster service to where they wanted to get to/from.

I saw Sunnyside along with 5 extra station on the west Lakeshore line at the time. Every GO lines can have more stations, but you need the different type of service as well EMU to service them. They should had put a station at Weston Rd while building the new overpass with no park being there.

As long as GO Transit and Metrolinx "CAR" planners refused to look at more stations without parking and new type of service, we will keep getting longer trains and wasting resources, operations cost doing so.

At the same time where lines are decade off from having EMU, you run short DMU until then.

 

[gweed123]

As long as GO Transit and Metrolinx "CAR" planners refused to look at more stations without parking and new type of service, we will keep getting longer trains and wasting resources, operations cost doing so.

At the same time where lines are decade off from having EMU, you run short DMU until then.

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to adding an O-Train style DMU (maybe a few more cars though) that would run the same abbreviated Lakeshore route that I show in my GO REX plan (Clarkson-Pickering, or Port Credit-Pickering), along with additional stations in Toronto. All "full length" GO trains along the Lakeshore route would bypass all Toronto stations with the exception of Union, and Exhibition during gameday events.

The Toronto Lakeshore GO service would have stations at: Port Credit, Long Branch, Mimico, Park Lawn/Humber Loop, Sunnyside/Roncesvalles, Exhibition, City Place, Union, Distillery, Gerrard Square, Danforth-Main, St. Clair East (current Scarborough Stn), Eglinton East, Guildwood, Rouge Hill, and Pickering.

This would speed up GO travel for everyone on the Lakeshore line coming from outside Toronto who is just bound for Union, and it would provide more service for people in Toronto who live along the corridor. Even 30 minute off-peak service would do, hopefully staged in such a way that the full line and the short line trains pull up at Port Credit and Pickering at the same time, so that people can transfer from one train to another without having to wait.

This wouldn't be a substitute for the DRL, but it would take a fair amount of pressure off the TTC, particularly in the west end.

Of course, this service would be replaced by GO REX when the time came to electrify.

 

[ssiguy2]

Makes perfect sense to me and could use the Bombardier Flexity LRT vehicles which can run on regular railway tracks. They would be quieter than larger trains and have level boarding and have larger and more doors for easier passenger flow at stations.
The extra stations could be added over time as with electrification and all that is really needed to begin with is the vehicles themselves.

I also agree that by having a more Toronto centric CityRail system it could also mean that many of the longer routes of the GO commuter rail system could have far fewer stations making their trips much faster from the 905. Except for a couple of transfer station, the GO commuter rail system could become a more easily managed and far faster moving 905 to Union express because lets face it, that's where 90% of the 905 riders are heading.

 

[gweed123]

Makes perfect sense to me and could use the Bombardier Flexity LRT vehicles which can run on regular railway tracks. They would be quieter than larger trains and have level boarding and have larger and more doors for easier passenger flow at stations.
The extra stations could be added over time as with electrification and all that is really needed to begin with is the vehicles themselves.

I also agree that by having a more Toronto centric CityRail system it could also mean that many of the longer routes of the GO commuter rail system could have far fewer stations making their trips much faster from the 905. Except for a couple of transfer station, the GO commuter rail system could become a more easily managed and far faster moving 905 to Union express because lets face it, that's where 90% of the 905 riders are heading.

Can Flexities run independent of an electrical power source (ie run on diesel)? I was under the impression they were limited to overhead or third rail, both of which are electric.

To save on costs at the beginning, I was going to suggest just using shorter GO trains, perhaps 4 or 5 cars. Or if GO can get a good deal on some DMUs, perhaps the Bombardier Talent, go with that. If they do go the DMU route, they can be shifted onto other lines after Lakeshore is electrified. I'm thinking specifically for rail service from Hamilton to Niagara Falls, having Hamilton be the transfer between electrified GO REX and the DMU service.

Of course, this may have to come with some type of a co-fare arrangement with the TTC. I would suspect it could be priced the same way as the Beaches Express Bus.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to adding an O-Train style DMU (maybe a few more cars though) that would run the same abbreviated Lakeshore route that I show in my GO REX plan (Clarkson-Pickering, or Port Credit-Pickering), along with additional stations in Toronto. All "full length" GO trains along the Lakeshore route would bypass all Toronto stations with the exception of Union, and Exhibition during gameday events.

The Toronto Lakeshore GO service would have stations at: Port Credit, Long Branch, Mimico, Park Lawn/Humber Loop, Sunnyside/Roncesvalles, Exhibition, City Place, Union, Distillery, Gerrard Square, Danforth-Main, St. Clair East (current Scarborough Stn), Eglinton East, Guildwood, Rouge Hill, and Pickering.

This would speed up GO travel for everyone on the Lakeshore line coming from outside Toronto who is just bound for Union, and it would provide more service for people in Toronto who live along the corridor. Even 30 minute off-peak service would do, hopefully staged in such a way that the full line and the short line trains pull up at Port Credit and Pickering at the same time, so that people can transfer from one train to another without having to wait.

This wouldn't be a substitute for the DRL, but it would take a fair amount of pressure off the TTC, particularly in the west end.

Of course, this service would be replaced by GO REX when the time came to electrify.

I have to say that, taking the GO into Union from Durham each day, this sort of arrangement would be an excellent idea. Most of the Lakeshore East express trains are already packed by the time they reach Pickering, so offering a DMU service from Pickering - Clarkson (or Port Credit) would be very beneficial. Adding the extra stations along the western half of the line could take a great deal of pressure off of the Lake Shore / Park Lawn area, especially in the face of standard TTC foot dragging and a rather slim chance there'll be a WWLRT for quite some time.

I can, as they say, dig this plan.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Fare integration would be ideal first.

GO seems interested in moving to REX service from current levels in around a decade anyway. They seem to be interested in it once they electrify, even if it is still large 6-8 car bilevel EMUs so they can deal with capacity while running 10-15 minute frequencies and still deal with peak need.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Fare integration would be ideal first.

GO seems interested in moving to REX service from current levels in around a decade anyway. They seem to be interested in it once they electrify, even if it is still large 6-8 car bilevel EMUs so they can deal with capacity while running 10-15 minute frequencies and still deal with peak need.

I would like to think the use of EMUs would give GO more flexibility to maintain a fairly consistent set of frequencies across their lines while matching train lengths to capacity along the route. Although I suppose we can't entirely hold our breath for such a thing.

Fare integration and electrification are definitely the keys to making REX effective. With fare integration, GO's fairly numerous in-Toronto stations would suddenly become far more useful than they currently are - even to the point of lessening the need for a DRL significantly.