[nfitz]

If Scarborough's bus and RT routes were modified to feed into it, I think it could be the 3rd busiest line on the system (counting Lakeshore as 1 line).

It's already 4th busiest. I can see it overtaking Milton simply because of how difficult it will be to do anything other than peak service on it.

To put it in perspective, 3rd busiest (counting Lakeshore as 1 line) is only an average of less than 18,000 a day. Stouffville is less than 14,000 a day - this is less than either the TTC 129 McCowan North bus or 68 Warden buses.

 

[gweed123]

It's already 4th busiest. I can see it overtaking Milton simply because of how difficult it will be to do anything other than peak service on it.

To put it in perspective, 3rd busiest (counting Lakeshore as 1 line) is only an average of less than 18,000 a day. Stouffville is less than 14,000 a day - this is less than either the TTC 129 McCowan North bus or 68 Warden buses.

After the implementation of GO REX, I had it as the 3rd busiest, behind Lakeshore and Kitchener. But yes, either way having bus and subway routes more appropriately feed the line, it could become the primary rapid transit method to get into or out of Scarborough.

 

[nfitz]

After the implementation of GO REX, I had it as the 3rd busiest, behind Lakeshore and Kitchener. But yes, either way having bus and subway routes more appropriately feed the line, it could become the primary rapid transit method to get into or out of Scarborough.

How? It doesn't go anywhere useful to many, unless they all get off at Kennedy. Many aren't even heading downtown ... I'm sure you've seen all the people who get OFF the Danforth line between Kennedy and Sherbourne. And for those that are heading downtown, arriving way south of Front Street is too far south, so they'd be more likely to simply take the subway from Kennedy.

We need frequent integrated service, and we should build it. But let's not overplay it. (okay, maybe we should overplay it, so they build it, and then we'll have it, and we'll still get other stuff too, because it will be clear that the BD line and Yonge line are still over-capacity).

 

[gweed123]

How? It doesn't go anywhere useful to many, unless they all get off at Kennedy. Many aren't even heading downtown ... I'm sure you've seen all the people who get OFF the Danforth line between Kennedy and Sherbourne. And for those that are heading downtown, arriving way south of Front Street is too far south, so they'd be more likely to simply take the subway from Kennedy.

We need frequent integrated service, and we should build it. But let's not overplay it. (okay, maybe we should overplay it, so they build it, and then we'll have it, and we'll still get other stuff too, because it will be clear that the BD line and Yonge line are still over-capacity).

Even if they are headed for the northern part of downtown, it would still be faster to take the GO REX in from say Agincourt than it would be to take some combination of bus, LRT, or subway. A back-track of a couple stops from Union up the U would still be faster than sitting through every stop on the Danforth section, transferring at Bloor-Yonge, and then cramming yourself into a southbound Yonge train. For most people, that would also probably be 1 fewer transfer as well (transfer to SLRT, transfer to B-D, transfer to YUS vs transfer to GO REX, transfer to YUS).

And if the DRL gets incorporated into the GO REX system, the whole "too far south" thing may not be an issue either.

 

[nfitz]

Even if they are headed for the northern part of downtown, it would still be faster to take the GO REX in from say Agincourt than it would be to take some combination of bus, LRT, or subway.

Sure, if they are in Scarborough north of the 401. Though don't discount that people don't want to walk great distances. I bet many would simply take the LRT to Don Mills, and subway to Dundas through Yonge/Sheppard, even it it takes a couple of minutes longer, as the trains are more frequent, the walking is less, and they likely live closer to one of the other LRT stops than Agincourt. Some will take it ... absolutely. And we should build it. But don't underestimate the penalties for the modal switch at Union.

 

[gweed123]

Sure, if they are in Scarborough north of the 401. Though don't discount that people don't want to walk great distances. I bet many would simply take the LRT to Don Mills, and subway to Dundas through Yonge/Sheppard, even it it takes a couple of minutes longer, as the trains are more frequent, the walking is less, and they likely live closer to one of the other LRT stops than Agincourt. Some will take it ... absolutely. And we should build it. But don't underestimate the penalties for the modal switch at Union.

No doubt there will be some who will prefer to stay on the TTC for the entire trip. But let's use your LRT example:

Assume the person is coming from say Warden & Sheppard (pretty dense intersection by Scarborough standards). They can either: LRT to Don Mills > Transfer to Subway > Subway to Sheppard-Yonge > Transfer to YUS > YUS to Dundas. That's 3 lines and 2 transfers. They can also: LRT to Agincourt (counter-flow) > Transfer to GO REX > GO REX to Union > Transfer to YUS > YUS to Dundas (counter-flow). Same number of transfers, far shorter travel time (assuming transfers timed well), far greater amount of counter-flow, which increases likelihood of getting a seat, or at least not being packed in like a sardine.

I can only speak for myself personally, but I would far prefer Option #2.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sure, if they are in Scarborough north of the 401. Though don't discount that people don't want to walk great distances. I bet many would simply take the LRT to Don Mills, and subway to Dundas through Yonge/Sheppard, even it it takes a couple of minutes longer, as the trains are more frequent, the walking is less, and they likely live closer to one of the other LRT stops than Agincourt. Some will take it ... absolutely. And we should build it. But don't underestimate the penalties for the modal switch at Union.

No doubt there will be some who will prefer to stay on the TTC for the entire trip. But let's use your LRT example:

Assume the person is coming from say Warden & Sheppard (pretty dense intersection by Scarborough standards). They can either: LRT to Don Mills > Transfer to Subway > Subway to Sheppard-Yonge > Transfer to YUS > YUS to Dundas. That's 3 lines and 2 transfers. They can also: LRT to Agincourt (counter-flow) > Transfer to GO REX > GO REX to Union > Transfer to YUS > YUS to Dundas (counter-flow). Same number of transfers, far shorter travel time (assuming transfers timed well), far greater amount of counter-flow, which increases likelihood of getting a seat, or at least not being packed in like a sardine.

I can only speak for myself personally, but I would far prefer Option #2.

If go was cheaper this could be done right now. Even now with the high fare I would rather take Rouge Hill or Agincourt on the GO -> Union then the subway. Even with a DRL built to Fairview Mall, and the Sheppard East subway A trip from Warden and Sheppard would be faster on the Sheppard East but still not as fast as the GO Train or GO Electrification.

 

[nfitz]

Assume the person is coming from say Warden & Sheppard (pretty dense intersection by Scarborough standards). They can either: LRT to Don Mills > Transfer to Subway > Subway to Sheppard-Yonge > Transfer to YUS > YUS to Dundas. That's 3 lines and 2 transfers. They can also: LRT to Agincourt (counter-flow) > Transfer to GO REX > GO REX to Union > Transfer to YUS > YUS to Dundas (counter-flow). Same number of transfers, far shorter travel time (assuming transfers timed well), far greater amount of counter-flow, which increases likelihood of getting a seat, or at least not being packed in like a sardine.

I can only speak for myself personally, but I would far prefer Option #2.

If go was cheaper this could be done right now. Even now with the high fare I would rather take Rouge Hill or Agincourt on the GO -> Union then the subway. Even with a DRL built to Fairview Mall, and the Sheppard East subway A trip from Warden and Sheppard would be faster on the Sheppard East but still not as fast as the GO Train or GO Electrification.

You can do it right now. Check the travel times in Google Maps.

It's currently 52 minutes at 8 AM to get from Sheppard/Warden to Dundas station on 85/GO/YUS. 6 minutes on 85, 7 minutes to wait for train, 29 minutes on GO, 7 minutes to walk to subway and catch train (which might be tight!), and 3 minutes on subway.

However it's only 54-55 minutes on 190/Sheppard Subway/Yonge Subway. (11 minutes on bus, 8 minutes transferring, waiting. 8 minute on Sheppard subway, 6 minutes transfering, 22 minutes on Yonge subway).

With the Sheppard LRT both will improve marginally. New GO services won't improve much, as it will likely add stops at Lawrence, Scarborough, and Danforth (and maybe even Ellesemere) to take away the improvement with increase acceleration of EMUs.

Yes, there's a marginal savings. Ultimately with a very good transfer built at Don Mills, there maybe no savings, and far less walking, to take the subway over GO. If they extended the subway line to Warden, it would be a no-brainer and the subway would always win.

 

[ehlow]

In a way this is NYC's DRL:
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014...enue-subway-and-it-cant-afford-not-to/374538/

 

[salsa]

I really hope Toronto doesn't become Manhattan.

 

[aquateam]

I really hope Toronto doesn't become Manhattan.

Manhattan's population density is 27,349 people/km^2
Old Toronto's population density is 7,584 people/km^2

So luckily for you we still have some time before we're Manhattan. Personally I don't mind density, although I like our stable neighbourhoods of semi-detached houses.

We're more like a cold San Francisco, with their density of 6 898 people/km^2 and sky-high housing prices.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Manhattan's population density is 27,349 people/km^2
Old Toronto's population density is 7,584 people/km^2

Mind that a lot of Old Toronto is made up of medium density detached/semi-detached residential homes. If you looked at the downtown core (roughly bordered by Bathurst, Bloor, Don River and Lake Ontario) the population density would likely be significantly higher, though still not at all comparable to Manhattan.

I'm curious about how fast this density is increasing.

Personally I don't mind density, although I like our stable neighbourhoods of semi-detached houses.

I'm a firm believer that more density is better (within reason, of course). Everything is more efficient with higher density.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In a way this is NYC's DRL:
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014...enue-subway-and-it-cant-afford-not-to/374538/

This looks like a nightmare to build. I hope this isn't what we have in store when we're building the Relief Line through the heart of the downtown core.

 

[salsa]

This looks like a nightmare to build. I hope this isn't what we have in store when we're building the Relief Line through the heart of the downtown core.

For one, the relief line does not need 4 tunnels.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^That is the east side access program, its for NYCs version of GO transit.