[Cobra]

It's for the whole line and it's good that they are aiming to make it shovel ready asap. This project would be eligible for the 50% Federal infrastructure program. Speaking of the western alignment, Dufferin makes more sense than Dundas West to me

 

[jje1000]

It's pretty shocking how our subway system is pretty useless for getting around the core area. This may yet change that.

AoD

It's probably because our streetcar system has acted as a crutch for so long- now with all the development downtown, we are naturally outgrowing the capacity of the streetcar system.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It's probably because our streetcar system has acted as a crutch for so long- now with all the development downtown, we are naturally outgrowing the capacity of the streetcar system.

Oh I am sure it did - but it's amazing how something taken for granted in most other cities is for the longest time verboten in Toronto planning.

AoD

 

[MisterF]

Oh I am sure it did - but it's amazing how something taken for granted in most other cities is for the longest time verboten in Toronto planning.

AoD

Indeed. Other cities like Berlin and Prague have managed to maintain their streetcar systems and still build extensive subway networks in their downtowns. And although I'm sure that some sections of streetcar lines have been removed in those cities, it doesn't have to be one system replacing the other.

 

[Cobra]

Indeed. Other cities like Berlin and Prague have managed to maintain their streetcar systems and still build extensive subway networks in their downtowns. And although I'm sure that some sections of streetcar lines have been removed in those cities, it doesn't have to be one system replacing the other.

We need both.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that John Tory took the bold move of adding tolls to the 2 expressways and gambled he could still win. Tolls could be only phase 1 of a much larger plan.

If he does get re-elected with the tolls being planned, I wouldn't be surprised to see him press with phase II and implement congestion charges and making the streetcar routes downtown transit malls or ROW.

This would allow our downtown streetcars to be

• more frequent
• much faster allowing to move more people
• would help to accommodate the growing downtown population showing no sign of slowing down

Combining that solution with the increasing frequency of the GO line with the current subway able to get these people to their downtown destinations/route, that's enough alternative to justify the congestion charges. This would not only decrease the amount of cars in the core, but would make our downtown more attractive and livable while adding more revenues for rapid transit extensions

 

[smallspy]

Oh I am sure it did - but it's amazing how something taken for granted in most other cities is for the longest time verboten in Toronto planning.

AoD

Who said it was verboten? It's been planned and/or in planning for the better part of 40 years.

The only thing that has changed is that there is the real possibility of having money thrown at it this time.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Who said it was verboten? It's been planned and/or in planning for the better part of 40 years.

The only thing that has changed is that there is the real possibility of having money thrown at it this time.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

The outcome speaks for itself - it's been planned for more than 40 years - but subways servicing the core is pretty much completely off the political agenda post BD. Money had been thrown in for extensions everywhere else. Even then, the plans are often than not about relieving and less about subways as a bona fide mode intra-downtown.

AoD

 

[smallspy]

The outcome speaks for itself - it's been planned for more than 40 years - but subways servicing the core is pretty much completely off the political agenda post BD. Money had been thrown in for extensions everywhere else.

AoD

That has a hell of a lot more to do with the political makeup of the former government of Metro Toronto than any perceived needs. It certainly doesn't help the outcome, however.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That has a hell of a lot more to do with the political makeup of the former government of Metro Toronto than any perceived needs. It certainly doesn't help the outcome, however.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

You forget the provincial government since the 1990's, which keeps cancelling plans (IE. Eglinton West Subway).

 

[Forgotten]

Said plan will still have to go under YUS - it wouldn't have made a difference where it matters in the core. Ditto the Don River crossing.

AoD

The Doomsday Clock didn't move closer to midnight because of Kim Jong, it did so because for the first time in history BurlOak and I were in agreement... twice...

There are many stations other than those which pass under YUS and all of them will be deeper excavations by necessity as the bedrock which they say the subway will run through is deeper at Queen Street. That might only be two stations in the east but many more west of the CBD will be twice as deep. Unfortunately the city planning division is living in an alternative fact reality. Geotechnical reality is always conveniently avoided around here. Deliberately choosing to build the deepest stations possible for hazy reasons will end up costing all of us a lot more.

It would also be a shame if they wrecked the plaza with the No Frills store just to appease the NIMBY nitwits. If you hate the working poor, getting rid of their nearby food sources is one way to drive them out of the neighbourhood. Redeveloping Carlaw is a red herring because the street is already developed or zoned as protected employment and less than 200m from Pape.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The downtown DRL stations will not exceed the current record holder for the deepest subway/metro station, at 105.5 m (346 ft) in the Arsenalna (Kiev Metro) Station.

See link.

From link.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There are many stations other than those which pass under YUS and all of them will be deeper excavations by necessity as the bedrock which they say the subway will run through is deeper at Queen Street. That might only be two stations in the east but many more west of the CBD will be twice as deep. Unfortunately the city planning division is living in an alternative fact reality. Geotechnical reality is always conveniently avoided around here. Deliberately choosing to build the deepest stations possible for hazy reasons will end up costing all of us a lot more.

It would also be a shame if they wrecked the plaza with the No Frills store just to appease the NIMBY nitwits. If you hate the working poor, getting rid of their nearby food sources is one way to drive them out of the neighbourhood. Redeveloping Carlaw is a red herring because the street is already developed or zoned as protected employment and less than 200m from Pape.

There are no concrete plans for the line west of the CBD - and I am unconvinced that, even assuming your claim re: bedrock is true (is it - that somehow it is deeper at Queen than at King?), that you cannot bring it closer to the grade once past the YUS lines.

As to your second point - you spent quite a bit of time arguing DRL on Queen is the wrong alignment, partly because the so called socioeconomic equity weighting factor being bogus. Saying that it will drive out a No Frills (presumably the one at Carlaw) now is ironic, to say the least (never mind that there is one immediately south of King on Front, so I guess that alignment somehow protects low-end supermarkets). Besides there will be another discount supermarket if there is a market for it (in fact, there is a Food Basics at Gerrard Square). Having subway access is apparently less important than the working poor than losing a choice of supermarket though.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There's are No frills at Sherbourne, Dufferin and Runnymede Stations, and one more not too far from Eglinton West.

 

[steveintoronto]

Be aware that tunnelling into Toronto bedrock is not like some cities elsewhere. I can't find the article I'm looking for, will link it later if I do find it, but this addresses the point, save that serious discontinuities are known across Toronto's bedrock for tunnelling purposes, and even more are unknown, let alone the major aquifer under Toronto that emerges (in part) in High Park:

(RE: Island Airport ped tunnel): “It’s not a long tunnel,” concedes Gary Benner, Vice-president of Newmarket-based Technicore Underground Inc., the prime contractor on the project, “but it’s complicated because it’s in shale, not hard rock. That has a big impact on how you build it.”
[...]
As Benner explains, the tunnel passes through soft, horizontally layered shale that is prone to collapsing. Before they could begin to excavate the tunnel, they had to create an arched crown, or secant wall above it in order to distribute the loads and eliminate the possibility of a collapse. They used two laser-guided, manually operated tunnel boring machines (TBMs), nicknamed Chip and Dale, designed and manufactured by a Technicore affiliate.[...]

http://www.canadianminingjournal.co...oses-many-challenges-at-billy-bishop-airport/[/quote]

This explains a lot:
Toronto’s swelling bedrock
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2014/10/03/torontos-swelling-bedrock/

 

[BurlOak]

The Doomsday Clock didn't move closer to midnight because of Kim Jong, it did so because for the first time in history BurlOak and I were in agreement... twice...

There are many stations other than those which pass under YUS and all of them will be deeper excavations by necessity as the bedrock which they say the subway will run through is deeper at Queen Street. That might only be two stations in the east but many more west of the CBD will be twice as deep. Unfortunately the city planning division is living in an alternative fact reality. Geotechnical reality is always conveniently avoided around here. Deliberately choosing to build the deepest stations possible for hazy reasons will end up costing all of us a lot more.

It would also be a shame if they wrecked the plaza with the No Frills store just to appease the NIMBY nitwits. If you hate the working poor, getting rid of their nearby food sources is one way to drive them out of the neighbourhood. Redeveloping Carlaw is a red herring because the street is already developed or zoned as protected employment and less than 200m from Pape.

Back in the 50's, we built cut and cover. That was followed up in the 60's, 70's and 80's (B-D, Yonge, Allen, SRT) with more cut and cover (all but the Yonge extension under York Mills?) or at grade/elevated. Maybe that is the legacy of the tunneled plans for Eglinton West (cancelled) and Sheppard, is that almost nothing gets built because of exorbitant costs.

That's why I think one of the most important subway extension is the B-D to Honeydale (427). We can prove that subways can be built for hundreds of millions starting with 1 (i.e. <$200M/km) instead of starting with 4 or 5. Sheppard West also fits into this. Tell public and Councillors (Pasternak) that this only gets built as cut-and-cover, and it will be done for < $250M /km.

These would become the benchmarks that other projects would be measured against.