[Palma]

Not surprising. Will probably have a promise before the next election to fund it, but will be far enough in the future that they won't have to actually follow through.

and what voter will fall for that?

 

[ADRM]

What am I convincing you of?

Nothing, which is exactly my point.

 

[goreckm]

I dunno, call me crazy, but put me firmly in the "we should plan large-scale projects before starting construction on them" camp.

We should, although it's very curious how this only applies to the DRL. This is purely smoke and mirrors to make Torontonians feel like they are putting their money where their mouth is. These studies will have to be done again once they get serious about construction a few decades from now.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Nothing, which is exactly my point.

I meant what do you think am I trying to convince you of?

 

[Tuscani01]

How is it that various LRT and BRT projects outside Toronto get funding commitments with only preliminary studies done

Which projects are these? Hurontario was planned before funding was secured, as was Hamilton's. As for BRT, London has only received ten's of millions of dollars for studies and early planning. There has been no commitment yet for any other funding beyond that.

 

[ADRM]

UPX and RER, as planned, hardly serve residents and businesses within the City of Toronto, which is why I specified "in Toronto" in my original post. I know they've committed $150 Million for planning for the complete Relief Line. However, the Relief Line has already been planned to death already, is about the enter EA phase, has been recommended for contruction by TTC and Metrolinx, yet we've yet to see a commitment to built it. Yet Queen's Park has no qualms about committing to build other projects outside of Toronto, with competitively little study done. And then there's the half-dozen of so cancelations and delays of the implementation of the Transit City plan by QP. Surely you can understand why after a decade of this, my faith in their ability to implant their promises has been shaken

I agree with a bunch of what you're saying here. I am taking exception to your original assertion that the province hasn't committed a dime of funding for new transit lines. That is patently untrue and there's just no other way to cut it.

I'm not trying to be a dick; I call out shit like that when I see it because people start to believe it and it becomes this self-perpetuating cycle of garbage. It's how you get "Scarborough deserves a subway" and "downtown vs. suburbs" and Trump and Brexit and conservative governments that won't build a fifth of what this province is currently building and committing to build.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree with a bunch of what you're saying here. I am taking exception to your original assertion that the province hasn't committed a dime of funding for new transit lines. That is patently untrue and there's just no other way to cut it

Let me clarify my initial statement, because it was not very clear. What I was saying is that, in nearly a decade QP has not committed any funding for the contruction of any new or extended transit lines within or significantly servicing the City of Toronto.

 

[goreckm]

and what voter will fall for that?

Voters have an extremely short memory. That, and if they lose, they won't have to follow through on their promise. If they win, construction is at least another election or two after that away, so there's a lot of potential for delay.

 

[Tuscani01]

However, the Relief Line has already been planned to death already, is about the enter EA phase, has been recommended for contruction by TTC and Metrolinx, yet we've yet to see a commitment to built it.

Oh really? What is the approved route? What are the approved stations? What is the proposed length of the project?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Which projects are these? Hurontario was planned before funding was secured, as was Hamilton's. As for BRT, London has only received ten's of millions of dollars for studies and early planning. There has been no commitment yet for any other funding beyond that.

Well I suppose it depends on what exactly you consider "preliminary planning", which I take to mean everything before the EA/TPAP.

 

[ADRM]

Let me clarify my initial statement, because it was not very clear. What I was saying is that, in nearly a decade QP has not committed any funding for the contruction of any new or extended transit lines within or significantly servicing the City of Toronto.

But that's still not true.

 

[ADRM]

But that's still not true.

I totally understand - and indeed fully share - the frustration with the existing state of public transit in the GTA; there's not enough of it, what we do have needs improvement in a number of ways, and there's still not enough of it even in the pipeline. But it's just not reasonable to assert that the provincial government has been delinquent in investing in transit in the GTA.

Can you rightly question the manner in which that's been rolled out or prioritized? Absolutely. Can you reasonably take issue with inconsistencies in the phasing of funds committed? Definitely. But the reality is that the province has invested billions of dollars in GTA transit and we're better for it.

As someone who lives in downtown Toronto (and as someone who generally cares about the well being of other people in the province), I really want the DRL and a Waterfront LRT line built as soon as possible (and I also recognize the merits of the Eg E LRT), and I'd also love to see a city-led effort to take most downtown streetcars out of mixed traffic, along with some other key improvements to the streetcar network.

But I don't expect the province solely to fund the costs of those projects - that's a responsibility that I believe should be shared reasonably across three levels of government.

 

[Kitsune]

Yeah...it's a good point. They haven't, although that will take some digging to get the quotes exact. I thought their funding pledge was contingent on the province matching funds, to a level of 40%. That needs to be clarified, as my understanding (open to correction) is that Toronto is now truly on its own....with a huge caveat! That the present *funding model* is to be re-examined. More on that later.

I think Vancouver got stuck in a similar predicament except that BC would only match up to 33%, and its was a understanding that Vancouver would have to come with the remaining 27%. BC has since commited to matching the 40%.

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm not trying to be a dick; I call out shit like that when I see it because people start to believe it and it becomes this self-perpetuating cycle of garbage.

This is a crucial point, and it extends well past just this string. It becomes a case of 'The Emperor's Clothes' where even questioning the wisdom of an approach in design, let alone funding, brings reactionary ire upon you. Every project *should be questioned*, by various stakeholders, not the least second and third party independent assessments for the *business case* to make sense. One doesn't have to be an unbridled Capitalist to see the need to maximize yield from investment. That has been sorely lost in Toronto, and much of Metrolinx, but especially Toronto. Tory's problem is that he isn't footing the bill. And Tory is far from being the first mayor to do so. Transit in Toronto has a an almost absolute lack of a coherent strategy and oversight. This is historical, but it's in a phase now where it's reached beyond the absurd. Having the City planning transit instead of the TTC is out of the pot, and into the fire.

But the reality is that the province has invested billions of dollars in GTA transit and we're better for it.

Absolutely. Albeit one must question how well it was spent? It's distinctly possible that the likes of Schabas and Collenette are now having an influence at Queen's Park, not by 'toeing the line', but doing reports that aren't miming 'the Emporer's Clothes' but stating: "We've got to examine how others are doing these things, and learn, and even our own projects, like Crosstown, to see what is working and what isn't". And as much as a number of posters are allergic to Crossrail, it is a *huge* teaching lesson to the Anglo nations of how to have multi-levels of government working together as *shareholder partners* of a stand-alone corporation. "On Budget, On Time!"

Crossrail: on time and on budget, is this how to get a major infrastructure project right?
Written by Colin Marrs on 8 February 2016 in Feature

Crossrail, the capital’s new east-west rail link, is on track to open on time and on budget. As well as being a boon for commuters, it could also improve the UK’s reputation for delivering major infrastructure projects. Colin Marrs digs around for some lessons
[...]
Despite spending decades in gestation, delivery of the project has been remarkably smooth, with the government claiming the project will be delivered on time and on budget. Experts seem to agree that the governance structures put in place for the Crossrail project have helped put the UK back on track when it comes to delivering major transport infrastructure. So what’s the secret?
[...]

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/a...et-how-get-major-infrastructure-project-right

But I don't expect the province solely to fund the costs of those projects - that's a responsibility that I believe should be shared reasonably across three levels of government.

And Crossrail did exactly that and used a limited corporate structure to make it work. Essentially, it's a wholly owned private corporation with the various levels of government and some private stakeholders (mostly positively affected big businesses who also donated large amounts of cash) sitting on the project's shareholder board of directors. There are answers, we just have to learn them.

BC has since commited to matching the 40%.

Vancouver has had problems, but done things a lot better in many cases than Toronto. We have to learn from their successes, and their failures, as well as our own.

I think you'll be seeing a lot more introspection on this issue in the better press in the next while.

 

[steveintoronto]

I think Vancouver got stuck in a similar predicament except that BC would only match up to 33%, and its was a understanding that Vancouver would have to come with the remaining 27%. BC has since commited to matching the 40%.

Just reading up on this now, and I'm confronted with two polar opposite headlines:
B.C. government won’t match transit funding in federal budget
Frances Bula

VANCOUVER — Special to The Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Mar. 22, 2017 10:06PM EDT
Last updated Wednesday, Mar. 22, 2017 10:27PM EDT
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...it-funding-in-federal-budget/article34393421/

B.C. government will match federal funding for Metro Vancouver transit expansion
Jennifer Saltman
More from Jennifer Saltman
Published on: March 31, 2017 | Last Updated: March 31, 2017 6:27 PM PDT
http://vancouversun.com/news/local-...er-transit-announcement-coming-friday-morning

I'll have to get back to that later and find out why the polar opposite. The latter one is a week later, perhaps there was a shift...

Edit to Add: Found a moment to read this. From the latter above:

[It was a change of tune for Fassbender, who previously committed to funding one-third of major projects in Phase 2 with no dollar amount attached.

Fassbender said the province was waiting until the federal money — about $2.2 billion over 11 years announced in last week’s budget — was in play to finalize its contribution.

“We had to do an analysis as to what the impact of the federal and the Trudeau government’s commitment to this region was,” Fassbender said. “We’ve done that work, we’ve sat down as a government and said that we can demonstrate clearly our support by matching the federal funding.”]

Interesting...