[p_xavier]

For comparison, the provincial government in Québec was the "owner" of the new lines and metro extensions from the creation of the old AMT. The STM now has full ownership of the metro. The downloading of the Laval metro to the STM from the AMT was a mess.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bob Hepburn: The neutering of Doug Ford

Ford’s biggest problem, though, is that he still hasn’t learned how to lead a government. He isn’t smart, sophisticated or engaged.

www.thestar.com

Bit of a Star hit piece, but it’s valid to point out that the subway upload might be the latest in a long list of policy reversals from this government.

This government continues to shy away from confrontation and controversy. The government is so unpopular that they have very little margin for error here. This tells me that the government is unlikely to proceed with the upload, even if the City doesn’t cave to their absurd ultimatum.

Don’t be surprised at all if any subway upload legislation pushes back the actual messy implementation of the upload until after Summer 2022 (the next election). They’ll probably dedicate the next two years to “planning and consultation”. Of course that would mean that the subway upload is effectively dead.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

For comparison, the provincial government in Québec was the "owner" of the new lines and metro extensions from the creation of the old AMT. The STM now has full ownership of the metro. The downloading of the Laval metro to the STM from the AMT was a mess.

How long did that take?

 

[Tuscani01]

Bob Hepburn: The neutering of Doug Ford

Ford’s biggest problem, though, is that he still hasn’t learned how to lead a government. He isn’t smart, sophisticated or engaged.

www.thestar.com

Bit of a Star hit piece, but it’s valid to point out that the subway upload might be the latest in a long list of policy reversals from this government.

This government continues to shy away from confrontation and controversy. The government is so unpopular that they have very little margin for error here. This tells me that the government is unlikely to proceed with the upload, even if the City doesn’t cave to their absurd ultimatum.

Don’t be surprised at all if any subway upload legislation pushes back the actual messy implementation of the upload until after Summer 2022 (the next election). They’ll probably dedicate the next two years to “planning and consultation”. Of course that would mean that the subway upload is effectively dead.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if all this backtracking is a result of pressure from the Federal PC's. I expect things to go back to the way they were once the election is over.

 

[sixrings]

If I was Tory (too bad he doesn't have the toughness required), these would be my conditions for City Hall support

1. City can toll the Gardiner & DVP or Queen's Park uploads both
2. Longer trains on the Ontario Line to correctly cover future demand
3. Funding to start planning a Northern Ontario Line Extension to the Sheppard Line (Don Mills Station) to shovel ready
4. Funding to start planning a North-Western Ontario Line Extension to the Bloor-Danforth Line (Dundas West Station) to shovel ready

The one thing I can say on here is that the people who support Sheppard subway extension and the Scarborough extension are unlike the rest of their counterparts. They believe in tolls, elevated, and or cut and cover. I think all of those are political non starters but at least congrats on being open minded to them.

 

[Edward Skira]

The Ford government is back tracking on all sorts of things. I wasn't surprised when I first heard. Their numbers stink and they are trying to fix them. They certainly don't have the backbone or conviction of a Harper or Harris.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The Ford government is back tracking on all sorts of things. I wasn't surprised when I first heard. Their numbers stink and they are trying to fix them. They certainly don't have the backbone or conviction of a Harper or Harris.

Especially not when - unlike Harris - the whole premise was that there will be no hurt, guaranteed (because we'd drain the swamp). Turns out there is hurt, and not only is the swamp not drained, they turned it into a mudpit for pigs to roll in.

Anyways, back to OL, for all the kerffle there is remarkably little public information on the project.

AoD

 

[TossYourJacket]

I don't know how anyone looks at the problems of the MTA in NYC and thinks "yeah an upload to the province is a good idea". My expectation with this has always been that all new lines going forward will be owned by Metrolinx, but operated by the TTC; aka, the exact situation that already was going to exist with the Crosstown, and it seems like thats the direction we're actually headed in as opposed to this silly idea of giving Metrolinx ownership of existing subway lines that they don't have the budget to maintain.

Now all we can do is hope that Metrolinx does a good job of designing new lines going forward, but given how pliable they are to the whims of politicians (see: Kirby GO, Lawrence East GO, everything about the Ontario Line), I'm skeptical.

 

[syn]

How can they upload an entire subway system when they can't even coordinate announcements?!

Ford government pulled plug on Ontario Line event after city objections, internal emails show

The province told Metrolinx to shelve the event that would have aired details of the line after Toronto’s city manager complained the city had yet to receive them, emails show.

www.thestar.com

 

[BurlOak]

Aren't the emergency exits required by the fire code?

Absolutely, and based on SSE estimates they seem to be about 50% of the cost of a full blown station.

Absolutely not. Why would emergency exits be needed to an area that is blocked off to the public and to employees.
Periodically, some employees may have to go into this area, but they would just treat it as a confined space.

 

[Rainforest]

Absolutely not. Why would emergency exits be needed to an area that is blocked off to the public and to employees.
Periodically, some employees may have to go into this area, but they would just treat it as a confined space.

I thought we are talking about a subway that has customers ..

 

[Rainforest]

Something doesn't seem right, Metrolinx and the provincial government are not telling us something important about the Ontario line. There are dozens of benefits to an upload, why would the province be willing to reverse it if they just want to get the Ontario Line built?

I can't imagine any operational benefits from the subway upload, given that the bus network remains in the city's hands, and is tightly integrated with the subways. Sounds about as efficient as appointing two CEOs with overlapping powers in a single corporation.

There might exist a fiscal benefit if the system expansion is funded by borrowing, since the province can borrow at a lower rate than the city. If that's the true goal, then it can probably be achieved through some kind of joint ownership. Say, originally the city owns 100% of the subway system worth (on the books) $20B. The province builds $5B worth of additions, and gets a 20% stake in the formal ownership. Now the whole system costs $25B on the books, the city owns 80% = $20B just as it did before, so its balance isn't disturbed in any way. The province owns 20% = $5B, and that offsets the bonds it had issued to cover the construction costs. The operations would remain 100% in the city's hands for the whole system.

Regarding the OL, Metrolinx should present a reasonably detailed design to confirm that the proposed line a) can be built, and b) meets the capacity expectations. Until then, neither the city nor the feds should write a blank cheque for a bag of unknown goodies.

 

[BurlOak]

I thought we are talking about a subway that has customers ..

Tunneling is cheap. keep tunneling to a convenient TBM extraction site - and then just don't build the stations or emergency exits.

I thought it was obvious, but I will spell it out. If there are no stations and no emergency exists, then the part beyond the last station is just an empty tunnel. Board it up, and leave it until there is money/desire to build the stations (and then the emergency exists would be needed as well).

 

[Rainforest]

I thought it was obvious, but I will spell it out. If there are no stations and no emergency exists, then the part beyond the last station is just an empty tunnel. Board it up, and leave it until there is money/desire to build the stations (and then the emergency exists would be needed as well).

Uhm .. who on earth would spend billions to build a transit line that's 100% off limits for all customers, pending additional funding to add missing critical infrastructure ..

I'm sorry if I'm a bit thick today. Perhaps the above makes sense as some form of mental excersise, but I fail to see any practical utility in that.

 

[BurlOak]

Uhm .. who on earth would spend billions to build a transit line that's 100% off limits for all customers, pending additional funding to add missing critical infrastructure ..

I'm sorry if I'm a bit thick today. Perhaps the above makes sense as some form of mental excersise, but I fail to see any practical utility in that.

Tunnel cost is $50M/km. https://www.thestar.com/business/20..._million_contract_to_tunnel_eglinton_lrt.html
Say $75M with inflation. If you tunnel an extra 3 or 4 km to a better TBM extraction site, you might just break even right there. Then when you want to remobilize to extend the subway, no TBM's are required at all - just excavation contracts for Stations (and emergency exits). It would likely cost double (or more) to remobilize TBM equipment to extend the tunnel those 4 km.
If we use the Toronto method of building subway every 50 years, it may not make sense. But if you intend to extend the subway in 5 or 10 years, then doing the tunnel now makes sense.
Did you notice how MTO tends to build the substructure wider than required to allow for future widening. This eliminates the costs of remobilizing for pier construction in valley.