W. K. Lis said:
I would add the requirement of platform doors on the Ontario Line.
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Is it true that platform screen doors at underground stations can reduce the cost of ventilation and structural costs of the station, but still be an increase in price of course?
 
smallspy said:
TTC track gauge causes issues only with certain types of vehicles, and in certain situations. The subway is not one of those.

Dan
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Right and my point was that Ford/Metrolinx are claiming that they can build their OL for cheaper because of the TTC's "crazy" track guage causing excessive construction and operation costs.

But eh moving on.
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
So Bombardier was not aware that Toronto is in a winter climate and streetcars should be protected against corrosion. To me the article sounds like more excuse making by Bombardier for failing to prepare adequately for the TTC's streetcars, than it was that the TTC is such a unique environment that no on expected or told Bombardier about the lengths that would be needed fulfill the order.

All the information that Bombardier claims the failed to plan for was available at the time of bid.

And remember we are talking about the proposed subway/OL not streetcars
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Why do you think that lighter trains are preferred?
Leo_Chan said:
Is it true that platform screen doors at underground stations can reduce the cost of ventilation and structural costs of the station, but still be an increase in price of course?
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Lighter trains are preferred for tighter turning radii, faster acceleration/decelleration/higher grades/less custom parts.

Platform doors increase the costs of ventilation because you need a differenrmt airflow for both the tunnel and stations.
 
Reecemartin said:
Canada Line trains are 40m, OL will be 100 that is not 150% train length. PSDs are a big piece too
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(100/40) *100 = 250%, therefore the OL trains will be 250% the length of Canada line trains.

250% - 100% = 150%, in other words, the OL trains will be 150% longer, or 1.5* longer than the canada line trains
p_xavier said:
Why do you think that lighter trains are preferred?

Lighter trains are preferred for tighter turning radii, faster acceleration/decelleration/higher grades/less custom parts.

Platform doors increase the costs of ventilation because you need a differenrmt airflow for both the tunnel and stations.
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Everything you listed has barely anything or absolutely nothing to do with the mass of the vehicle, or actually improves with greater mass.

Tighter turning radii — Has to do with the length of the vehicle. Often this actually increases weight because you need more parts per car
Faster Acceleration/Deceleration — Has to do with tractive effort provided by the motors. Mass plays no role, power consumption does. In terms of getting up grades, it's the friction force, which increases linearly with mass.
Fewer Custom Parts — How does this have to do with mass? It's not like they're building the existing subway trains with special parts that are actually adding mass to the train. How is this magical new technology describe so much better than a subway train with 3rd rail collection? You cannot get more basic than that.
 
Would Line 3 Scarborough Line still be around should the Ontario Line open? Would the Ontario Line become Line 6 or Line 3, depending is that number is available?
 
Streety McCarface said:
(100/40) *100 = 250%, therefore the OL trains will be 250% the length of Canada line trains.

250% - 100% = 150%, in other words, the OL trains will be 150% longer, or 1.5* longer than the canada line trains

Everything you listed has barely anything or absolutely nothing to do with the mass of the vehicle, or actually improves with greater mass.

Tighter turning radii — Has to do with the length of the vehicle. Often this actually increases weight because you need more parts per car
Faster Acceleration/Deceleration — Has to do with tractive effort provided by the motors. Mass plays no role, power consumption does. In terms of getting up grades, it's the friction force, which increases linearly with mass.
Fewer Custom Parts — How does this have to do with mass? It's not like they're building the existing subway trains with special parts that are actually adding mass to the train. How is this magical new technology describe so much better than a subway train with 3rd rail collection? You cannot get more basic than that.
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???? I was talking about what "light metro" brings. You can adapt heavy rail cars (which means the Rocket here) heavily to support the same characterstics but why the hell would you since you can already have off the shelf trains that do that natively?
 
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p_xavier said:
???? I was talking about what "light metro" brings. You can adapt heavy rail cars (wgich means the Rocket here) heavily to support the same characterstics but why the hell would you since you can already have off the shelf trains that do that natively?
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Again, "Off the shelf" subway cars, or even light metro cars do not exist.
 
Off the shelf, from what I understand, means that they are using existing widely available components that have ready to make and assemble and not creating any new custom hardware from for that system/order.

Bombardier is claiming that they had to redesign how the articulation/turning works for the TTC streetcar system. They originally thought they can just use their European trains in Toronto but with the TTC gauge replaced. Hense they thought they can do it 'off the shelf' but ended up needing to make it custom for the TTC.
 
Streety McCarface said:
(100/40) *100 = 250%, therefore the OL trains will be 250% the length of Canada line trains.

250% - 100% = 150%, in other words, the OL trains will be 150% longer, or 1.5* longer than the canada line trains
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You were going so well until this last statement.
0% longer is same length.
100% longer is twice the length. (Thus 50% longer is 1.5X the length.)
150% longer is 2.5 X the length, or 250% of the length of Canada Line - as you said in the first line.
 
NoahB said:
Off the shelf, from what I understand, means that they are using existing widely available components that have ready to make and assemble and not creating any new custom hardware from for that system/order.

Bombardier is claiming that they had to redesign how the articulation/turning works for the TTC streetcar system. They originally thought they can just use their European trains in Toronto but with the TTC gauge replaced. Hense they thought they can do it 'off the shelf' but ended up needing to make it custom for the TTC.
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This is what Alstom did for Ottawa too. I still have faith in the REM Alstom Metropolis trains, since they are "off the shelf with options" but are nearly half the price of the heavy rail equivalent.
 
p_xavier said:
This is what Alstom did for Ottawa too. I still have faith in the REM Alstom Metropolis trains, since they are "off the shelf with options" but are nearly half the price of the heavy rail equivalent.
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Well... About that. At least in the Ottawa case the Spirit shares less than expected with it's European brethren, it's pretty much a clean sheet design since European metric parts and wiring guages don't work for the American market where they hope to make inroads. I imagine the Metropolis models may be less off the shelf than you are expecting, even though they will look like their foreign counterparts
 
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