Rainforest

urbanfan89 said:
Yet he opposes converting the Sheppard Subway to underground LRT and interlining the Sheppard LRT ...
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To be accurate, Steve Munro does not oppose the conversion of Sheppard Subway to underground LRT in order to join it with Sheppard East LRT. On the contrary, he endorsed that idea on his blog site recently.

[I'm not sure that such conversion is the right thing to do, as the funds needed for such conversion can be spent to build some new transit instead; but that's another matter ...]
 
The width of a Toronto streetcar is 2.5m.
The width of a Montreal Metro train car is 2.5m.

The length of a CLRV is 15.4m. The length of a ALRV is 23.2m.
The length of a new Low Floor Light Rail Vehicle (LFLRV) is going to be between 27m and 30m.
The length of a Montreal Metro train car is about 17m.

A Montreal Metro train can be either a 9, 6, or 3 cars. The smallest set is a motor car, a trailer, and a motor car. The length of a 9 car train is about 152.4m, or about 5 of the new LFLRVs, and can carry about 1,260 people.

A LFLRV will have a capacity of 260 people (CLRV is 132, ALRV is 205). A multi-unit (MU) of 2 cars would carry 520 people. A 5 car LFLRV train could carry the same group of people as the Montreal Metro train, and be about the same length.

I have been on the Montreal Blue Line, and it used the smallest train of 3 cars. A MU of only 2 LRLRVs would exceed the equivalent of the Montreal Blue Line Metro train.

For comparison, a TTC subway car has a width of 3.1m and can carry 315 people. A six car train can carry about 1,890 people.

Do not think of single unit LRLRVs, but how many of the units to be coupled together to handle the passengers, and how long should the stations or stops be to handle them?

Now if only the TTC will use the same station designers as the Montreal Metro for the Transit City underground stations.
 
Are you sure about that? I thought the Blue Line trains were always 6 cars.
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They might have increased the cars to 6 since the last I was there. I do know the headway was improved. They trains were not as frequent as the TTC subway.
 
the blue line normally operates with 6 car trains except during the summer when it's reduced to 4. U of M isn't as heavily used in the summer so one of the major trip generators on the line is essentially missing for 4 months. I used to live at Outrement station: it's not inconvenient since the line is never really crowded anyway--you just have to remember where the train stops. When they're at 4 car units, the train is less than half the length of the platform...
 
What I was getting at is that the Downtown Relief Line below Bloor-Danforth, could operate with 3, 4, or 5 car trains; and 1 or 2 car trains above, depending on demand. The station at Bloor-Danforth for either Jane or Don Mills could use a three or four track station set up so that in heavy demand periods, a 5 car train would use one track to short turn, while another track on the other side of the platform would use a 1 or 2 car train to continue its trip up. When the demand lessens, ie. Sunday, all trains could continue their trips as needed.

The only remaining question would be is how long should the platforms be for all the lines. 2, 3, 4, or 5 car lengths? I am assuming that a single car length should not be used.
 
W.K. Lis, can you please explain to me the point of building a subway line with streetcar vehicles? What is wrong with the subway vehicles that we already have, and which operate extremely successfully? Is it just the inherent awesomeness of LRT?

It's frankly insane to build a new downtown rapid transit route with anything but the highest-capacity system available. And, since LRVs are more expensive than comparable capacity in subway vehicles, it would be cheaper too.
 
W. K. Lis said:
What I was getting at is that the Downtown Relief Line below Bloor-Danforth, could operate with 3, 4, or 5 car trains; and 1 or 2 car trains above, depending on demand. The station at Bloor-Danforth for either Jane or Don Mills could use a three or four track station set up so that in heavy demand periods, a 5 car train would use one track to short turn, while another track on the other side of the platform would use a 1 or 2 car train to continue its trip up. When the demand lessens, ie. Sunday, all trains could continue their trips as needed.

The only remaining question would be is how long should the platforms be for all the lines. 2, 3, 4, or 5 car lengths? I am assuming that a single car length should not be used.
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If you going to build it, build it right and that an 8-10 car train. Otherwise, you will have Yonge all over again.

Go as far as having 4 tracks so you can run express as well local at the same time.

Make sure you have high speed crossovers, otherwise Yonge again.

Have a bold vision and don't stop at Bloor or Steeles. Go north into the 905.

At the same time, make sure the rail corridors are the backbone as they will take the pressure off subway/LRT/BRT lines to a point.
 
A subway line deserves subway cars. And this relief line must be a subway. It must be built for the needs of today and tomorrow. Consequently, it should be a full capacity system.

Half measures here might be cheap by today's standards, but are possibly useless meeting tomorrow's needs.
 
If you going to build it, build it right and that an 8-10 car train. Otherwise, you will have Yonge all over again.
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A current TTC (Heavy Rail Vehicle) subway car is 22.8m long. A 6 car TTC HRV train is about 137m long.

A 8 (30m each) LFLRV car train would put it at 240m, while a 10 (30m each) LFLRV car train would put it at 300m. They will not use such long trains, nor will they build platforms that are almost the average distance between LRT stops of about 500m±. (Most likely, the distance between DRL stations will be closer to 1 or 2 km.)

A 5 car LFLRV train would be about 150m, longer than the current TTC HRV train.
 
Have any of the LRT fanboys been on the MBTA Green Line? Trains come every few minutes on the platforms and yet it's overcrowded and slow and unreliable, even on weekends. I mention the MBTA Green Line because of the long underground downtown section and branching on the outer ends.

Even Muni Metro (which isn't bad below Market Street) isn't fun, especially when waiting for one of the branches.

Eglinton will likely work as a TC line. The DRL will not, especially the way "advocates", fanboys and Giambrone/Munro followers propose it.
 
SeanTrans said:
Have any of the LRT fanboys been on the MBTA Green Line? Trains come every few minutes on the platforms and yet it's overcrowded and slow and unreliable, even on weekends. .
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The MTBA Green Line uses 2 articulated car trains (or 3 PCC car trains) and their underground platforms cannot be extended without major money. They also have multiple branches in the outlaying regions, which is both good and bad.

The underground platforms for our DRL should be made to accommodate 5 car trains, but initially run with 2 or 3. With demand, more cars could be added.
 
W. K. Lis said:
The width of a Toronto streetcar is 2.5m.
The width of a Montreal Metro train car is 2.5m.

The length of a CLRV is 15.4m. The length of a ALRV is 23.2m.
The length of a new Low Floor Light Rail Vehicle (LFLRV) is going to be between 27m and 30m.
The length of a Montreal Metro train car is about 17m.

A Montreal Metro train can be either a 9, 6, or 3 cars. The smallest set is a motor car, a trailer, and a motor car. The length of a 9 car train is about 152.4m, or about 5 of the new LFLRVs, and can carry about 1,260 people.

A LFLRV will have a capacity of 260 people (CLRV is 132, ALRV is 205). A multi-unit (MU) of 2 cars would carry 520 people. A 5 car LFLRV train could carry the same group of people as the Montreal Metro train, and be about the same length.

I have been on the Montreal Blue Line, and it used the smallest train of 3 cars. A MU of only 2 LRLRVs would exceed the equivalent of the Montreal Blue Line Metro train.

For comparison, a TTC subway car has a width of 3.1m and can carry 315 people. A six car train can carry about 1,890 people.

Do not think of single unit LRLRVs, but how many of the units to be coupled together to handle the passengers, and how long should the stations or stops be to handle them?

Now if only the TTC will use the same station designers as the Montreal Metro for the Transit City underground stations.
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You are measuring size of the car, not seats or actual capacity.

Pittsburgh quite possibly has the most advanced LRT cars of any city in North America, they run both underground as a subway and at grade or in the street as a typical LRT system.

What is the point of buying a system that is practically as expensive and uses cars similar in size when you can get the real deal? That's the question, not that LRT can't be useful.

Again, as stated before, Toronto isn't Portland or St Louis. LRT is fantastic in cities that are smaller, less busy. But for Toronto, one of North America's most urban cities, light rail simply isn't enough.

Toronto is coming of age, it'll likely be 10 million people in the coming decades as people like us age. This kind of traffic isn't light rail traffic.
 
I can't wait to ride 2-car LRT on the DRL. And all the congestion caused by platforms designed only to allow 4-5 car LRT trains unload, so bunching will be a problem for sure.

Toronto isn't even Boston or the City/County of San Francisco. LRT has its place, but it's not the DRL.
 
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