[T3G]

It seems to me that getting LSW up to the full expanded state would open up huge possibilities for simpler commutes to employment in Oakville, Port Credit, and especially Hamilton.

Likewise Toronto-Guelph-Kitchener-London.

- Paul

LSW is not really the line I had in mind when giving this example, even now it is one of the better services on the GO network.

I was thinking of the Milton and northern reaches of the Barrie and Stouffville lines, and, of course, anyone who doesn't live by a rail line. Peterborough, Waterloo, Guelph...

 

[Northern Light]

GO Expansion is a band aid on a wound... if one has to travel upwards of an hour, what difference does it make to them if their local line runs every 10 minutes or every hour? They're still pissing away an immense amount of their time, because some enlightened planners decided downtown Toronto is the only place that deserves to have employment, services, arts or culture.

No, de-densifying downtown and trying to correct the mistakes of the last 50 years in the suburbs (a big ask, but it's the only way we can possibly make the GTA a livable place) is the only logical way forward.

I'm not sure your assigning blame correctly.

Toronto has in fact tried to create mini-downtowns in NYCC and STC and the hope is for something along those lines at Six Points, while the former East York wanted one on Overlea.

Money was spent on streetscapes, on permissive commercial zoning and more; and it turns out, uptake on the office space that was built is only so/so in NYCC and so poor elsewhere that few towers were built and 2 on Overlea were turned into Condos.

NYCC did get its own Performing Arts Centre, but it struggled to fill itself (and still does).

That's not to suggest we couldn't have or shouldn't have had more balanced development.

But a variety of things were done incorrectly.

MCC was not built next to a GO line; neither was SCC or NYCC, though at least the latter got subways.

Part of what creates energy in downtowns is the presence of young people; but the universities located in North York aren't at NYCC, nor is the University in Scarborough at STC; nor is Mississauga's Uni at MCC.

Those decisions don't fall on City planners for the most part though. The province had a great deal of sway.

The other thing is......frankly, when you've got an established centre, that's well served, it can require a heavy stick, not merely a carrot to send development elsewhere.

Former Mayor Crombie's 8-storey height limit was part of just such a plan, it may not have been the right idea, then or now, but certainly it might have shifted where some things ended up.

 

[afransen]

GO Expansion is a band aid on a wound... if one has to travel upwards of an hour, what difference does it make to them if their local line runs every 10 minutes or every hour? They're still pissing away an immense amount of their time, because some enlightened planners decided downtown Toronto is the only place that deserves to have employment, services, arts or culture.

No, de-densifying downtown and trying to correct the mistakes of the last 50 years in the suburbs (a big ask, but it's the only way we can possibly make the GTA a livable place) is the only logical way forward.

GO Expansion is not just increasing frequency, it is also increasing average speeds through electrification, and eventually lighter rollng stock.

 

[robmausser]

GO Expansion is not just increasing frequency, it is also increasing average speeds through electrification, and eventually lighter rollng stock.

Its also increasing speeds of the trains outside of the downtown core areas by making most of them express service.

 

[T3G]

I'm not sure your assigning blame correctly.

Toronto has in fact tried to create mini-downtowns in NYCC and STC and the hope is for something along those lines at Six Points, while the former East York wanted one on Overlea.

Money was spent on streetscapes, on permissive commercial zoning and more; and it turns out, uptake on the office space that was built is only so/so in NYCC and so poor elsewhere that few towers were built and 2 on Overlea were turned into Condos.

NYCC did get its own Performing Arts Centre, but it struggled to fill itself (and still does).

That's not to suggest we couldn't have or shouldn't have had more balanced development.

But a variety of things were done incorrectly.

MCC was not built next to a GO line; neither was SCC or NYCC, though at least the latter got subways.

Part of what creates energy in downtowns is the presence of young people; but the universities located in North York aren't at NYCC, nor is the University in Scarborough at STC; nor is Mississauga's Uni at MCC.

Those decisions don't fall on City planners for the most part though. The province had a great deal of sway.

The other thing is......frankly, when you've got an established centre, that's well served, it can require a heavy stick, not merely a carrot to send development elsewhere.

Former Mayor Crombie's 8-storey height limit was part of just such a plan, it may not have been the right idea, then or now, but certainly it might have shifted where some things ended up.

Well, that is why I referred to those mini-downtowns as pastiches.

I think it was a good idea, but they went about it really poorly. I'm not sure it resulted in any increased value compared to not doing anything at all.

But I'm responding to the comments saying that Miller is bad for advocating decentralization and moving away from downtown. However wrong he may be about the OL, he is 100% correct that we need to move away from downtown. It would be ideal if the rest of the GTA were made into destinations rather than things you have to pass through on the way to employment, entertainment, and culture.

 

[Northern Light]

Well, that is why I referred to those mini-downtowns as pastiches.

I think it was a good idea, but they went about it really poorly. I'm not sure it resulted in any increased value compared to not doing anything at all.

But I'm responding to the comments saying that Miller is bad for advocating decentralization and moving away from downtown. However wrong he may be about the OL, he is 100% correct that we need to move away from downtown. It would be ideal if the rest of the GTA were made into destinations rather than things you have to pass through on the way to employment, entertainment, and culture.

The residential density is there in many nodes; but to get employment in large numbers you really want those public-sector drivers of spin offs.

Universities spin off research-intensive jobs; as well as lawyers and doctors due to medical schools and law schools etc.; and some will naturally begin practice where they trained.

Hospitals spin off associated medical jobs, notably private medical practices and physio therapy type jobs; but also ancillary support services, research etc.

Large Court houses bring law firms.

But we just moved to consolidate a whole bunch of court houses downtown, with more than a few hiccups thus far; as many suburban court staff have quit rather than accept transfers.........but again
The court house in North York was on Finch West, not in NYCC, and the one in Scarborough was on Eglinton near Warden, not STC.

None of which falls on City Planning, it falls on the province who decides where they want to build court houses. (and hospitals and Universities etc.)

The City may be able to help around the fringes, which is what its doing by building the new Civic Centre and Library at Six Points.......but its not enough to truly create major secondary nodes.

That many of these places, especially MCC, and STC lack any real sense of history as core areas, and any heritage landmark buildings also amplifies the challenge.

 

[The REAL]

Well, that is why I referred to those mini-downtowns as pastiches.

I think it was a good idea, but they went about it really poorly. I'm not sure it resulted in any increased value compared to not doing anything at all.

But I'm responding to the comments saying that Miller is bad for advocating decentralization and moving away from downtown. However wrong he may be about the OL, he is 100% correct that we need to move away from downtown. It would be ideal if the rest of the GTA were made into destinations rather than things you have to pass through on the way to employment, entertainment, and culture.

The mini downtowns are actually coming back. Before Toronto was amalgamated, Each borough had their own city halls, which turned into government resource buildings. But recently Scarborough's "downtown" has been coming alive, with the help of the new subway stop helping with the developement. Etobicoke has a weird thing going on where they almonst have 2 downtowns developing, one at six points, and one at park lawn around the soon to be Mimico GO station. That site actually makes more sense since there's a way to get where you need to go and not just have it be a dead end area with nothing to do. East York and York have basically been absorbed by Metro Toronto and Etobicoke. The new downtown that's being created from scratch (downtown east) will be at East Harbor, which will connect with the Ontario line, GO & TTC.

 

[The REAL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659940089504333824

I’m not sure if I understand the point he is trying to make here.

Well 1. The Eglinton LRT is being built right under the existing subway. 2. The Ontario line will be built way deeper under the existing downtown stations, as there's going to e a lot of utilites they would have to move in the downtown core.

 

[MrGoose]

The Ontario Line is obviously a necessity, but in the big picture, it's hard to think of someone not wanting density concentrated downtown to be any sort of problem.

Toronto wants so badly to be Manhattan, but we don't have the transit system required to support that level of density. We won't for decades even if everything that is planned dropped from the sky fully built right this second. And the focus on downtown-centric planning means that everyone with the misfortune of living anywhere in the GTA but there suffers; if there existed actual, real city centres in the suburbs (not pastiches of same like you see at Mississauga City Centre or Scarborough Town Centre), the quality of life would improve dramatically. Focusing all our economic and cultural centers in downtown Toronto is just bad planning, pure and simple

We do have the transit system required to support that level of density. 4 Go tracks from the east, and 8 GO tracks from the west, 2 tracks for each branch of the Yonge University line and the Ontario Line is more than enough heavy rail transit for Toronto (at the moment), provided we create the systems necessary to maximize that physical potential. IE the GO RER program to do through running and higher frequency electric trains.

That doesn't even factor how much we neglect the streetcars. If we treated the streetcars as 1st class citizens in their right of way, by separating them from automobile traffic, giving them priority at signals and removing street parking then we could unlock 4 E-W high capacity LRT routes with only some new signals and concrete blocks.

 

[GenerationW]

The DRL should have been prioritized over the Spadina extension, not suburban LRT's

And what is with this ongoing bashing of David Miller as some anti-transit zealot?

Miller didn't have much leverage. York Region had obtained provincial and then federal support for Spadina. Miller had little love for Spadina, but McGuinty promised billions in future Toronto transit funding in exchange for Miller publicly supporting Spadina.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659940089504333824

I’m not sure if I understand the point he is trying to make here.

That he still has little use for a relief line.

You asked which plan. I simply pointed to the plan.

That was Miller in 2009 moving the DRL from Metrolinx's 25-year plan to 15 to match the Yonge extension. Yonge had a higher priority for the province in 2007:

Province invests billions in Ontario transit plan

The provincial government announced Friday a multi-billion dollar transit plan for Toronto and Hamilton that will ease congestion and create faster commute times.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

So technically you are correct. As it turned out, Yonge and the relief line cancelled each other out until this decade.

 

[abovegrade]

The mini downtowns are actually coming back. Before Toronto was amalgamated, Each borough had their own city halls, which turned into government resource buildings. But recently Scarborough's "downtown" has been coming alive, with the help of the new subway stop helping with the developement. Etobicoke has a weird thing going on where they almonst have 2 downtowns developing, one at six points, and one at park lawn around the soon to be Mimico GO station. That site actually makes more sense since there's a way to get where you need to go and not just have it be a dead end area with nothing to do. East York and York have basically been absorbed by Metro Toronto and Etobicoke. The new downtown that's being created from scratch (downtown east) will be at East Harbor, which will connect with the Ontario line, GO & TTC.

I just had friends come visit from Calgary, and they were quite shocked at how many centres and hubs there were besides downtown Toronto. They found it fascinating. It's also growing considerably in the fact we also have more emerging hubs such as 2150 lakeshore like you said but also the Downsview airport site, Golden Mile, and in the GTA such as downtown Vaughan, Sauga and Brampton. So excited to see this decentralization happen further.

 

[Amare]

I just had friends come visit from Calgary, and they were quite shocked at how many centres and hubs there were besides downtown Toronto. They found it fascinating. It's also growing considerably in the fact we also have more emerging hubs such as 2150 lakeshore like you said but also the Downsview airport site, Golden Mile, and in the GTA such as downtown Vaughan, Sauga and Brampton. So excited to see this decentralization happen further.

What we're seeing is not decentralization because for years now we've been seeing businesses flock to the downtown core, or to industrial business parks in Mississauga, Oakville, etc.

It's more that we're seeing very dense residential bubbles being built across the city, which are in many cases not the "hubs" that you may think because they lack various pieces of basic infrastructure (including proper reliable transit).

 

[evandyk]

It's more that we're seeing very dense residential bubbles being built across the city, which are in many cases not the "hubs" that you may think because they lack various pieces of basic infrastructure (including proper reliable transit).

And schools.

 

[anb]

GO Expansion is a band aid on a wound... if one has to travel upwards of an hour, what difference does it make to them if their local line runs every 10 minutes or every hour? They're still pissing away an immense amount of their time, because some enlightened planners decided downtown Toronto is the only place that deserves to have employment, services, arts or culture.

No, de-densifying downtown and trying to correct the mistakes of the last 50 years in the suburbs (a big ask, but it's the only way we can possibly make the GTA a livable place) is the only logical way forward.

That’s simply not all true. There are already a couple of towns and cities in the GTA that can and will grow into this anyways.

For examples, Kitchener line has a number of good villages, employment areas, and downtowns it connects to (Bloor, Mount Dennis, Weston, Bramalea, Mount Pleasant, Acton, Guelph, Kitchener). The all day full runs on the line shows that there’s demand in both directions.

The LSW side of GO is the same thing (Exhibition, Mimico, Long Branch, Port Credit, Burlington, West Harbour, Hamilton Centre). Even St Catherines and Niagara are included too.

 

[generalcanada]

fencing has went up around queen/spadina northeastern corner, demolition might start soon.